From jjllambias@hotmail.com Sun May 27 18:26:00 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 28 May 2001 01:26:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 83911 invoked from network); 28 May 2001 01:25:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 28 May 2001 01:25:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.241.205) by mta1 with SMTP; 28 May 2001 01:25:59 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 27 May 2001 18:25:59 -0700 Received: from 200.41.247.33 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 28 May 2001 01:25:59 GMT X-Originating-IP: [200.41.247.33] To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Subject: Re: [lojban] Request for grammar clarifications Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 01:25:59 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 May 2001 01:25:59.0673 (UTC) FILETIME=[26BE9E90:01C0E715] From: "Jorge Llambias" la rab spir cusku di'e >I think that part of the reason {me} was changed is because {du} is, for >some >reason, taboo. Probably true. >I know it's not good to throw {du} around carelessly, but >sometimes it would be the best way to say something. Yes. Probably the main one to avoid is {du lo broda}, which is logically sound but means about the same as plain {broda}. >But with {du}'s status in >the language now, it would get more use as a lerfu shift or yet another >word >for "ten" or something Actually, I wanted it at some point as a replacement for {du'u}, which is too long for the amount of use it gets. >- out of fear of being unlojbanic, nobody uses {du}. >So, it seems that {me} was changed to incorporate some uses of {du}. It should be noted that they are different though in one important respect: {me ko'a} means "x1 is at least one of ko'a", whereas {du ko'a} means "x1 is equal to (each) ko'a". When ko'a is a singleton they are about the same, when it isn't, they aren't. In other words, {me ko'a} is more or less {du su'o ko'a}. >An example that comes to mind is way back from aulun's poem, {morji loi >critu}. >The poem ended with, IIRC, > >le morsi mlatu >me mi {cu me mi}, I suppose. >This is different from {mi morsi mlatu}, which would seem to be the most >Lojbanically correct way of saying that you are a dead cat, because the >sentence referred to a dead cat mentioned earlier in the poem. Right. {me} is the only way to incorporate the definiteness of {le} into the selbri. >Perhaps a better example would be the Walt Kelly quote, "We have met the >enemy, >and he is us." Is there any better way to translate that than {mi'o puzi >penmi >le bradi .ije ri du mi'o}? That's strictly equivalent to: {mi'o le bradi puzi penmi gi'e du} co'o mi'e xorxes _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.