From pycyn@aol.com Mon May 28 17:56:27 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 29 May 2001 00:56:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 92956 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 00:56:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 29 May 2001 00:56:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m07.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.162) by mta2 with SMTP; 29 May 2001 00:56:26 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-m07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.22.) id r.c0.14f8da8d (25100) for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 20:56:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 20:56:15 EDT Subject: Re: Enemy [Was: [lojban] Request for grammar clarifications To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_c0.14f8da8d.28444daf_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10519 From: pycyn@aol.com --part1_c0.14f8da8d.28444daf_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On "We have me the enemy and they are us," the first thing to note is that much of its effect originally depended on its echo of Oliver Hazard Perry's report on the Battle of Lake Erie (War of 1812=the Napoleonic War in America): "We have met the enemy and they are ours" with it movement in time, its achievement sense and the surprise of it all (Perry's home-made boats were not tested, but were in fact perfect for the lakes, while the Brits used modified ocean craft). That is a lot of freight for "and" to bear, but it does it nicely the first time (with seemly litotes), so Pogo plays off of it well. It won't work in Lojban with the same economy and spelling it all out loses the punch. Some things just don't translate. The nearest Lojban might come is "We have met the enemy and discovered that they are us" which conveys the sense but lacks the snap. --part1_c0.14f8da8d.28444daf_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On "We have me the enemy and they are us," the first thing to note is that
much of its effect originally depended on its echo of Oliver Hazard Perry's
report on the Battle of Lake Erie (War of 1812=the Napoleonic War in
America): "We have met the enemy and they are ours" with it movement in time,
its achievement sense and the surprise of it all (Perry's home-made boats
were not tested, but were in fact perfect for the lakes, while the Brits used
modified ocean craft).  That is a lot of freight for "and" to bear, but it
does it nicely the first time (with seemly litotes), so Pogo plays off of it
well.  It won't work in Lojban with the same economy and spelling it all out
loses the punch.  Some things just don't translate.  The nearest Lojban might
come is "We have met the enemy and discovered that they are us" which conveys
the sense but lacks the snap. --part1_c0.14f8da8d.28444daf_boundary--