From pycyn@aol.com Mon Jun 04 19:48:17 2001
Return-Path: <Pycyn@aol.com>
X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com
X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com
Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 5 Jun 2001 02:48:17 -0000
Received: (qmail 4525 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2001 02:48:17 -0000
Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 Jun 2001 02:48:17 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d06.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.38) by mta2 with SMTP; 5 Jun 2001 02:48:13 -0000
Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.22.) id r.31.15cf1ef3 (1758) for <lojban@yahoogroups.com>; Mon, 4 Jun 2001 22:48:06 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <31.15cf1ef3.284da266@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 22:48:06 EDT
Subject: Re: [lojban] RE: Rabbity Sand-Laugher
To: lojban@yahoogroups.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_31.15cf1ef3.284da266_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10519
From: pycyn@aol.com

--part1_31.15cf1ef3.284da266_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 6/4/2001 6:24:16 PM Central Daylight Time, 
xod@sixgirls.org writes:


> <Of course, they should not publish their first shot until they have
> > some reason to think they are going to do a fair job of it
> 

Sorry to see that common courtesy has fallen to the point of being a 
disruption (a state, yet, not even an action) to vitality. Why should you 
ask anyone else to spend time on something you have not spent appropriate 
time on yourself?

<a'unaicai pe'idai le nu fanva la .alis. cu palci .ianai .u'e .i le'o
.iaru'e ku'i mapti le do na'o selsku .i za'a do na'o gunta le mutce
kamfinti pilno mu'u la maikl. .i do ba'o fanta dada'o poi nalseldjuno ku'o
ca'o le nanca be li 30
Aside from being unsure what empathetic opining is, I am glad to see that 
someone agrees that translating Alice is evil. I don''t wonder at your 
reluctance in admitting this nore even at your wonder and disbelief, but it 
is nice to have you along. [I know you don't mean that, but it is what you 
say.] I am not sure what aggressive weak agreement is either, but then I was 
unaware that I had a typical expression; I thought I was all over the place. 
Nor do I see my complaining when maikl lets his quest for the poetic and the 
compact get in the way of clarity in an arguments as being any more typical 
than my awed praise when he hits that combination (they seem to be the same 
thing for him) square on -- and makes sense as well. Nor have I noted that 
whichever I give it has affected what maikl -- or anyone else -- does. I may 
have prevented something from happening that would otherwise have happened in 
the last 25 years, but I doubt it, and it is, of course, unprovable either 
way. Even when I was an editor, I published whatever I got, after trying to 
make some sense of it and after Jim rewrote it. And now it is much easier to 
be sure that what is submitted is at least grammatical and fits together as 
intended.

<.i pa'ecaifu'e pe'i le pu'u le nu fanva abu. cu mutce nandu .i la'asai
cirko pisu'o smuni .i ku'i xamgu fi le li'i cilre .i pe'i se'icai
zmadu le darsi cnino jboselsku le xelfanva le ka cinri mi .i .o'osai ku'i
se'inai mi curmi je na krixa pante>
(I suppose you mean {fa le darsi ...} else everything ends up a place over 
and makes for awful sense-- and we would not know what is more.)
At least we do agree that translating Alice (or anything) is hard and that 
some emaning is bound to be lost (though some other gained). I am less sure 
that it is always a good from the point of view of the learner. xorxes 
assures us that it has been good for him, but then he was already pretty far 
along the learning curve. I know of several for whom it was destructive -- 
or so they said (it certainly would make a great excuse). 

<.a'enaicai>
Me too. Let's carry this on in a language that doesn't take so much time or, 
at least, strip Lojban down to the essentials, which we can work comfortably. 
I admit I generally skip your attidtudinals, since they don't usually make 
much sense and never add anything, but this set was too perverse to pass up. 
Skip 'em and sppeed the process up a bit.

--part1_31.15cf1ef3.284da266_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT SIZE=2>In a message dated 6/4/2001 6:24:16 PM Central Daylight Time, 
<BR>xod@sixgirls.org writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&lt;Of course, &nbsp;they should not publish their first shot until they have
<BR>&gt; some reason to think they are going to do a fair job of it
<BR>la'e di'u za'o jursa selcinmo ja'e le za'i dicra le kamjmive</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR>Sorry to see that common courtesy has fallen to the point of being a 
<BR>disruption (a state, yet, not even an action) to vitality. &nbsp;Why should you 
<BR>ask anyone else to spend time on something you have not spent appropriate 
<BR>time on yourself?
<BR>
<BR>&lt;a'unaicai pe'idai le nu fanva la .alis. cu palci .ianai .u'e .i le'o
<BR>.iaru'e ku'i mapti le do na'o selsku .i za'a do na'o gunta le mutce
<BR>kamfinti pilno mu'u la maikl. .i do ba'o fanta dada'o poi nalseldjuno ku'o
<BR>ca'o le nanca be li 30
<BR>Aside from being unsure what empathetic opining is, I am glad to see that 
<BR>someone agrees that translating Alice is evil. &nbsp;I don''t wonder at your 
<BR>reluctance in admitting this nore even at your wonder and disbelief, but it 
<BR>is nice to have you along. [I know you don't mean that, but it is what you 
<BR>say.] &nbsp;I am not sure what aggressive weak agreement is either, but then I was 
<BR>unaware that I had a typical expression; I thought I was all over the place. 
<BR>Nor do I see my complaining when maikl lets his quest for the poetic and the 
<BR>compact get in the way of clarity in an arguments as being any more typical 
<BR>than my awed praise when he hits that combination (they seem to be the same 
<BR>thing for him) square on -- and makes sense as well. &nbsp;Nor have I noted that 
<BR>whichever I give it has affected what maikl -- or anyone else -- does. &nbsp;I may 
<BR>have prevented something from happening that would otherwise have happened in 
<BR>the last 25 years, but I doubt it, and it is, of course, unprovable either 
<BR>way. &nbsp;Even when I was an editor, I published whatever I got, after trying to 
<BR>make some sense of it and after Jim rewrote it. &nbsp;And now it is much easier to 
<BR>be sure that what is submitted is at least grammatical and fits together as 
<BR>intended.
<BR>
<BR>&lt;.i pa'ecaifu'e pe'i le pu'u le nu fanva abu. cu mutce nandu .i la'asai
<BR>cirko pisu'o smuni .i ku'i xamgu fi le li'i cilre .i pe'i se'icai
<BR>zmadu le darsi cnino jboselsku le xelfanva le ka cinri mi .i .o'osai ku'i
<BR>se'inai mi curmi je na krixa pante&gt;
<BR>(I suppose you mean {fa le darsi ...} else everything ends up a place over 
<BR>and makes for awful sense-- and we would not know what is more.)
<BR>At least we do agree that translating Alice (or anything) is hard and that 
<BR>some emaning is bound to be lost (though some other gained). &nbsp;I am less sure 
<BR>that it is always a good from the point of view of the learner. &nbsp;xorxes 
<BR>assures us that it has been good for him, but then he was already pretty far 
<BR>along &nbsp;the learning curve. &nbsp;I know of several for whom it was destructive -- 
<BR>or so they said (it certainly would make a great excuse). &nbsp;
<BR>
<BR>&lt;.a'enaicai&gt;
<BR>Me too. &nbsp;Let's carry this on in a language that doesn't take so much time or, 
<BR>at least, strip Lojban down to the essentials, which we can work comfortably. 
<BR>&nbsp;I admit I generally skip your attidtudinals, since they don't usually make 
<BR>much sense and never add anything, but this set was too perverse to pass up. &nbsp;
<BR>Skip 'em and sppeed the process up a bit.</FONT></HTML>

--part1_31.15cf1ef3.284da266_boundary--