From edward.cherlin.sy.67@aya.yale.edu Tue Jun 05 15:19:18 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: edward.cherlin.sy.67@aya.yale.edu X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 5 Jun 2001 22:19:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 54335 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2001 22:19:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 Jun 2001 22:19:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mta6.snfc21.pbi.net) (206.13.28.240) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Jun 2001 22:19:08 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.2] ([216.103.90.93]) by mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0GEH003IX9YTQI@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net> for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 15:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 15:18:25 -0700 Subject: Re: [lojban] More Alice In-reply-to: X-Sender: cherlin@postoffice.pacbell.net To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable References: From: Edward Cherlin At 2:24 AM +0000 6/4/01, Jorge Llambias wrote: >la pycyn cusku di'e > >>Well, it was a play with words, but hardly a play ON words and pretty >>surely >>not a pun (maybe 2/3, as the saying goes -- but I doubt that). > >I probably don't understand the meaning of "pun" then. In fact >there is no common word like it in Spanish, we just say "juego >de palabras" (wordplay). A pun requires the substitution of similar-sounding words in a=20 well-known phrase, or the use of two separate meanings of a word or=20 phrase. It is widely held that the outcome of a successful pun is=20 groans rather than laughter. "A pun is the lowest form of wit," says the critic. "A bun is the lowest form of wheat," says the punster. Punster: "I can make a pun on any subject." Challenger: "Make a pun on the King, then." Punster: "The king is not a subject." Some of the more notable practitioners have been Steve "The Leaning Pizza of Towser" Allen Piers Anthony, whose Xanth tales run on magic fueled by low-grade=20 puns such as exploding pineapples. Terry Pratchett, who can pun on ideas, not just words. His character=20 Rincewind, given the magical power "to find food in the desert",=20 picks up a rock and discovers a ham sandwich underneath. Reginald Bretnor, who originated "Through Time and Space with=20 Ferdinand Feghoot", writing under the anagrammatical pseudonym of=20 Grendel Briarton. "One man's meat is another man's poi, son." Isaac Asimov, who also wrote Feghoots. Spider Robinson, who claims that the ultimate accolade for a pun is=20 for the listeners to run screaming into the night while holding their=20 noses. In Callahan's Crosstime Saloon and its sequels, regular weekly=20 Punday contests are held. On one occasion, Jake tells the story of=20 his great-grandfather Stonebender building the pyramids and curing=20 yaws. "What's yaws?" asks Callahan suspiciously. "Why, thanks, Mike,=20 I'll have a beer." Dennis Muir and Frank Norden of the BBC radio program My Word. "G.=20 Stopes took oinker." "Peeper porter prigged a perk of pickled pauper." Vladimir Nabokov, who translated "Alice" into Russian. Anyway, I thought you made a very good pun. [snip] > >The Lobster Quadrille looks passable in that (no surprise here -- like >>Chinese, it is hard not to rhyme in Lojban) it rhymes fairly closely, but >>it >>is not a quadrille or any other regular dance step, though the chorus com= es >>close. > >Could you be more specific? I thought I had matched the English rhythm >pretty well. Where did I miss? It is certainly modifyable where needed. The Lobster Quadrille is based on The Laughter Quadrille, a popular=20 dance of the period which I have in an arrangement for recorders. It=20 is in a very assertive 2/4 time, requiring strict alternation of=20 stressed and unstressed beats. > >Is it time for another round on what Lojban poetry will be like, given = that >>neither rhyme nor rhythm are likely to play major roles? In any case, a >>dance would be a bad candidate for an early contribution. > >Why? I don't understand the defeatism. There are all sorts of rhymes, and a variety of non-rhyming forms as=20 well. How about a sestina? Consider these, from http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~ian/glossary.html. Rhyme: normally end-rhyme, that is, lines of verse characterized by the=20 consonance of terminal words or syllables. Rhymed words=20 conventionally share all sounds following the word's last stressed=20 syllable. Thus "tenacity" and "mendacity" rhyme, but not "jaundice"=20 and "John does," or "tomboy" and "calm bay." The rhyme scheme is the=20 pattern of end-rhymes in a stanza. * Amphisbaenic rhyme: a reversed rhyme, such as "trot" and "tort." * Broken rhyme: rhyming with an initial or medial syllable of a=20 word that is split between two lines with a hyphen. * Eye rhyme: words rhyming only as spelled, not as pronounced,=20 and hence not a perfect or true rhyme. An example is "through" and=20 "slough." * Feminine rhyme: gendered expression for rhymes ending in one=20 or more unstressed syllables, such as "fruity" and "booty." The=20 expressions light, weak or multi-syllable rhyme avoid the sexist bias. * Half-rhyme: rhyming only with the consonants in the terminal=20 syllable(s). Examples would include "tell"/"toll" and=20 "concrete"/"litcrit". Also termed `off-rhyme' and `slant rhyme.' See=20 consonance. * Initial rhyme: see alliteration. * Internal rhyme: rhymes found inside the lines, as well as=20 (usually) at the end of the lines. * Masculine rhyme: gendered expression for rhymes ending in a=20 stressed syllable, such as "hells" and "bells." The expressions=20 strong or one-syllable rhyme avoid the sexist bias. * Monorhyme: the use of only one rhyme in a stanza. An example=20 is Dante Gabriel Rossetti's "The Woodspurge." * Pararhyme: Edmund Blunden's term for double consonance, where=20 different vowels appear within identical consonant pairs (a feature=20 of Wilfrid Owens' verse). * Tail rhyme: a stanza with a tail, tag, or extra short line=20 that may rhyme with another such line later on. Chaucer's tale of Sir=20 Thopas is one example. * Rich rhyme: rhymes identical in sound (or spelling) but=20 semantically different, e.g., "Felicity was present | To pick up her=20 present." * Synthetic rhyme: a forced rhyme in which the spelling and=20 sound of a word are distorted. * Vowell rhyme: see assonance. See also alliteration, assonance, consonance, onomatopoeia, and rime cou=E9= e. --=20 Edward Cherlin Generalist "A knot!" exclaimed Alice. "Oh, do let me help to undo it." Alice in Wonderland