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Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 19:39:48 EDT
Subject: Re: [lojban] RE: Rabbity Sand-Laugher
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In a message dated 6/5/2001 4:02:30 PM Central Daylight Time,=20
lojbab@lojban.org writes:



> . Of course, they should not publish their first shot until they have
> >some reason to think they are going to do a fair job of it.
>=20
> I will disagree with this. We WANT new people learning the language to t=
ry=20
> to write in Lojban - anything, whether it be translation or original=20
> writing. If they publish it on the list, or on the CVS site which clearl=
y=20
> is an extension of the list in the way it is used (and because of the=20
> reports that are posted here of changes thereto), then this is a way to=20
> seek comments on ones efforts to learn the language.
>=20



Easy for you to say, since you rarely have time to read the stuff (not a=20
complaint, since what takes your time is important, but...). I have spent =
a=20
couple of hours trying to make some -- any -- sense out pieces that people=
=20
tossed off in a couple of minutes then put out on the web (or into a letter=
=20
in the old days) without even trying to check it. That is rude at best,=20
insulting at a slightly more careful thought -- the writer wants someone el=
se=20
to do the work that is rightly his, since he started the process. Newbies=
=20
get a pass until they stock up with the appropriate goodies -- and we are l=
ax=20
about telling them where those things are, I think -- but then they have=20
responsibilities as members of the community to be as careful (or more, all=
=20
things considered) as the established members. Yes, we want people to try,=
=20
but not to produce shoddy stuff for others to work over -- you can learn a=
=20
lot reading the outprint of jbofi'e (or so I am told, mine never gives=20
outputs -- another reason why I don't write Lojban) and it is even faster=20
than waiting for the list to mention the same things.

<But I do think that advise and comment should generally be encouraging and=
=20
positive, or it will turn people off:>
Hey, if it's wrong, it's wrong. But you can explain what why in a friendly=
=20
and helpful way and suggest better moves and so on.

<I think we would be much more fruitful in this regard by encouraging=20
original writing in Lojban rather than translation.=A0 I'd love to see some=
=20
new ckafybarja writings.>

Amen: not copyright problems, no insulted dead authors, and so on. Of=20
course, it does leave the "What have you in the language" part undealt with=
,=20
but I wonder how important that is, really.

<.=A0 Some
>bits get settled.

Yes, and your summaries of the bits that get settled have been a useful=20
service.=A0 Can I suggest collecting them and putting them up, now that you=
=20
are setting up Lojban stuff on your website.=A0 Much easier than searching=
=20
the archives (and you have the privilege of revising what you have=20
summarized earlier in case things have changed since then).>

Yeah, I think that would be better than trying to summarize the old argumen=
ts=20
-- I tend to get lost in one side or the other.



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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#ffffff"><FONT SIZE=3D=
2>In a message dated 6/5/2001 4:02:30 PM Central Daylight Time,=20
<BR>lojbab@lojban.org writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN=
-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">. &nbsp;Of course, &nbsp;=
they should not publish their first shot until they have
<BR>&gt;some reason to think they are going to do a fair job of it.
<BR>
<BR>I will disagree with this. &nbsp;We WANT new people learning the langua=
ge to try=20
<BR>to write in Lojban - anything, whether it be translation or original=20
<BR>writing. &nbsp;If they publish it on the list, or on the CVS site which=
clearly=20
<BR>is an extension of the list in the way it is used (and because of the=20
<BR>reports that are posted here of changes thereto), then this is a way to=
=20
<BR>seek comments on ones efforts to learn the language.
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Easy for you to say, since you rarely have time to read the stuff (not =
a=20
<BR>complaint, since what takes your time is important, but...). &nbsp;I ha=
ve spent a=20
<BR>couple of hours trying to make some -- any -- sense out pieces that peo=
ple=20
<BR>tossed off in a couple of minutes then put out on the web (or into a le=
tter=20
<BR>in the old days) without even trying to check it. &nbsp;That is rude at=
best,=20
<BR>insulting at a slightly more careful thought -- the writer wants someon=
e else=20
<BR>to do the work that is rightly his, since he started the process. &nbsp=
;Newbies=20
<BR>get a pass until they stock up with the appropriate goodies -- and we a=
re lax=20
<BR>about telling them where those things are, I think -- but then they hav=
e=20
<BR>responsibilities as members of the community to be as careful (or more,=
all=20
<BR>things considered) as the established members. &nbsp;Yes, we want peopl=
e to try,=20
<BR>but not to produce shoddy stuff for others to work over -- you can lear=
n a=20
<BR>lot reading the outprint of jbofi'e (or so I am told, mine never gives=
=20
<BR>outputs -- another reason why I don't write Lojban) and it is even fast=
er=20
<BR>than waiting for the list to mention the same things.
<BR>
<BR>&lt;But I do think that advise and comment should generally be encourag=
ing and=20
<BR>positive, or it will turn people off:&gt;
<BR>Hey, if it's wrong, it's wrong. &nbsp;But you can explain what why in a=
friendly=20
<BR>and helpful way and suggest better moves and so on.
<BR>
<BR>&lt;I think we would be much more fruitful in this regard by encouragin=
g=20
<BR>original writing in Lojban rather than translation.=A0 I'd love to see =
some=20
<BR>new ckafybarja writings.&gt;
<BR>
<BR>Amen: not copyright problems, no insulted dead authors, and so on. &nbs=
p;Of=20
<BR>course, it does leave the "What have you in the language" part undealt =
with,=20
<BR>but I wonder how important that is, really.
<BR>
<BR>&lt;.=A0 Some
<BR>&gt;bits get settled.
<BR>
<BR>Yes, and your summaries of the bits that get settled have been a useful=
=20
<BR>service.=A0 Can I suggest collecting them and putting them up, now that=
you=20
<BR>are setting up Lojban stuff on your website.=A0 Much easier than search=
ing=20
<BR>the archives (and you have the privilege of revising what you have=20
<BR>summarized earlier in case things have changed since then).&gt;
<BR>
<BR>Yeah, I think that would be better than trying to summarize the old arg=
uments=20
<BR>-- I tend to get lost in one side or the other.
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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