From pycyn@aol.com Tue Jun 05 16:55:11 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 5 Jun 2001 23:55:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 95839 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2001 23:55:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 Jun 2001 23:55:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m06.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.161) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Jun 2001 23:55:06 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.22.) id r.4f.ca408eb (7878) for ; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 19:55:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4f.ca408eb.284ecb54@aol.com> Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 19:55:00 EDT Subject: Re: [lojban] RE: Rabbity Sand-Laugher To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_4f.ca408eb.284ecb54_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10519 From: pycyn@aol.com --part1_4f.ca408eb.284ecb54_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/5/2001 5:29:12 PM Central Daylight Time, pycyn@aol.com= =20 writes: > In a message dated 6/5/2001 4:24:38 PM Central Daylight Time,=20 > rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org writes:=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> > a whole. In future I will redirect my responses to you back to the=20 >> list.>=20 >>=20 >=20 The rest of the note in question runs In a message dated 6/5/2001 12:54:33 PM Central Daylight Time,=20 rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org writes: > Umm, I think it's pretty freaking obvious. =A0He's empathising > with/expressing what he believes to be _your_ opinion, which he > expresses as "le nu fanva la .alis. cu palci". =A0A bit unorthodox, but I > found it instantly clear. =A0Oh, he's also expressing repulsion, > disbelief, and wonder at your opinion. =A0The 'dai' clearly states that > the opinion is not his own. >=20 I agree that that is what he meant to say and that it is perfectly clear, m= y=20 only point is that he does not say it. =A0He says that translating Alice is= =20 evil, his source for that claim is indicated (but not asserted) to be his=20 understanding of my opinion (he got it wrong, but that is irrelevant). He=20 also indicates disdain (repulsion is not the opposite of interest, I=20 shouldn't think), disbelief and wonder at the claim that he (first on the=20 list) has just made. =A0Both empathy and opinion are also bad grounds for=20 claims, as this case points out. =A0 "dai" doesn't state anything, though it does indicate that the emotion=20 expressed is originally someone else's -- if "empathy" is taken literally, = it=20 is now also the speaker's. =A0Of course, none of the other attiudinals stat= e=20 anything either -- it is a Lojban 0 mistake to use them as if they did (and= =20 the opposite move, too -- both malglico in a particularly misleading way). Relevantly to the matter under discussion, xod has a standing claim -- by=20 deeds, he may be too modest to assert it -- to be in an upper echelon of=20 Lojbanists, below the top four or five perhaps, but quite high up, yet he=20 regularly makes these kinds of simple errors, often falls into incredibly=20 complex construction for simple situations, and not infrequently insists th= at=20 he -- not the Book or someone above him in the hierarchy -- is right. =A0Is= it=20 a wonder that I hold little hope for Lojban translations now of fairly=20 sophisticated material? =A0 --part1_4f.ca408eb.284ecb54_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/5/2001 5:29:12 PM Central Daylight Time, pycyn@aol.c= om=20
writes:

In a message dated 6/5/20= 01 4:24:38 PM Central Daylight Time,=20
rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org writes:=20

<It would be best, IMO= , if you sent these sorts of things to the list as=20
a whole. In future I will redirect my responses to you back to th= e=20
list.>=20

The rest of the note in question runs

In a message dated 6/5/2001 12:54:33 PM Central Daylight Time,=20
rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org writes:

Umm, I think it's pretty = freaking obvious. =A0He's empathising
with/expressing what he believes to be _your_ opinion, which he
expresses as "le nu fanva la .alis. cu palci". =A0A bit unorthodox, but= I
found it instantly clear. =A0Oh, he's also expressing repulsion,
disbelief, and wonder at your opinion. =A0The 'dai' clearly states that
the opinion is not his own.

I agree that that is what he meant to say and that it is perfectly clea= r, my=20
only point is that he does not say it. =A0He says that translating Alic= e is=20
evil, his source for that claim is indicated (but not asserted) to be h= is=20
understanding of my opinion (he got it wrong, but that is irrelevant). = He=20
also indicates disdain (repulsion is not the opposite of interest, I=20
shouldn't think), disbelief and wonder at the claim that he (first on t= he=20
list) has just made. =A0Both empathy and opinion are also bad grounds f= or=20
claims, as this case points out. =A0
"dai" doesn't state anything, though it does indicate that the emotion= =20
expressed is originally someone else's -- if "empathy" is taken literal= ly, it=20
is now also the speaker's. =A0Of course, none of the other attiudinals = state=20
anything either -- it is a Lojban 0 mistake to use them as if they did = (and=20
the opposite move, too -- both malglico in a particularly misleading wa= y).
Relevantly to the matter under discussion, xod has a standing claim -- = by=20
deeds, he may be too modest to assert it -- to be in an upper echelon o= f=20
Lojbanists, below the top four or five perhaps, but quite high up, yet = he=20
regularly makes these kinds of simple errors, often falls into incredib= ly=20
complex construction for simple situations, and not infrequently insist= s that=20
he -- not the Book or someone above him in the hierarchy -- is right. = =A0Is it=20
a wonder that I hold little hope for Lojban translations now of fairly= =20
sophisticated material? =A0
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