From lojbab@lojban.org Tue Jun 05 23:10:08 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 6 Jun 2001 06:10:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 18476 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2001 06:10:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 6 Jun 2001 06:10:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO stmpy-1.cais.net) (205.252.14.71) by mta1 with SMTP; 6 Jun 2001 06:10:06 -0000 Received: from bob.lojban.org (142.dynamic.cais.com [207.226.56.142]) by stmpy-1.cais.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f566A5e93651 for ; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 02:10:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010606020249.00b7f100@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: vir1036/pop.cais.com@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 02:15:57 -0400 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] RE: Rabbity Sand-Laugher In-Reply-To: <4a.16bc64d9.284ec7b6@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" At 07:39 PM 06/05/2001 -0400, pycyn@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 6/5/2001 4:57:56 PM Central Daylight Time, >lojbab@lojban.org writes: >>Now pc, >you< were (one of?) the earliest to note that attitudinals might >>change an apparent assertion into something else; I recall mention of >>possible worlds and the like. The following of the bridi with "ianai" >>clearly makes the statement NOT an assertion (or rather renders a valid >>translation as "Translating Alice is evil, NOT!" > >And the Book contains a nice separation between such world-creating >attitudinals and the purely emotive ones that respond to claims: {a'u}, and >{u'e} and {ianai} in the sense incredulity all clearly belong to the latter >set, though the Book at this point is inconsistent with itself, since it >seems to imply that even {ui} has a truth value and then extends that to some >of these others. I think, but am not checking at present, that the Book in fact does NOT separate attitudinals into two classes, because you and I could not do so and stick to said classification over time. Rather the world-creating nature of an attitudinal is scalar. bridi, regardless of the attitudinals attached thereto, have a truth value, but the meaningfulness of that truth value is at question given a more world-creating attitudinal. In the case of ianai, attitudinally I do not see much difference between "incredulity" and what we express in English "NOT!", which I guess is "denial". Though we would tend to use the latter to actually make the opposite claim (which might better be conveyed using "naku" at the end rather than "ianai"). >If the statement is not an assertion, what is it? Is anything asserted in >the passage in question? If nothing is asserted than what is the point of >the (very strange) evidential, which should be a side (assertion, comment, >warning label?) that the assertion is based on the cited evidence, but here >there is no evidence that was available to the speaker to cite, someone >else's assumed opinion is not a case of the speaker knowing his own mind. I think that xod was trying to say that his empathy picked up that bridi as being your opinion. I would therefore say that any evidential with dai is going to make the bridi NOT an assertion on the part of the speaker, but rather something perceived as being an assertion on the part of someone else (which in my mind makes the whole sentence more or less attitudinal). In that case, attitudinals NOT labelled with dai are the speaker's attitudes. lojbab -- lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org