From lojbab@lojban.org Tue Jun 05 23:28:53 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 6 Jun 2001 06:28:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 50989 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2001 06:28:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 6 Jun 2001 06:28:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO stmpy-1.cais.net) (205.252.14.71) by mta1 with SMTP; 6 Jun 2001 06:28:52 -0000 Received: from bob.lojban.org (142.dynamic.cais.com [207.226.56.142]) by stmpy-1.cais.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f566Soe94830 for ; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 02:28:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010606022307.00b70970@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: vir1036/pop.cais.com@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 02:34:43 -0400 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] RE: Rabbity Sand-Laugher In-Reply-To: <9a.154a2508.284ef42d@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" At 10:49 PM 06/05/2001 -0400, pycyn@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 6/5/2001 8:03:36 PM Central Daylight Time, cowan@ccil.org >writes: >>In particular, even "ui" can be seen as a propositional attitude, >>something like "It makes me happy that ..." > >In short, when we had a chance to get rid of an ambiguity in English (and at >least SAE generally), we muffed it, keeping the whole shooting match. >Actually, it is rather worse than that, since the distinction was made and >preserved in Loglan I don't think it is. There isn't enough attitudinal usage in TLI Loglan to know how "ui" really works. But I think that there remains a THREE WAY distinction, with two of the three being usually semantically ambiguous in Lojban (I think some of the discursives actually disambiguate between world-creation and propositional expression - certainly the non-dai observatives are propositional and especially the observative of assertion). I don't think that "ui" "It makes me happy that" is quite the same as "mi gleki lenu ...". The latter is tenseless (and hence could be other than a present emotion, whereas "ui" always is taken at the point of expression), and is truth conditional with regards to the happiness and not the thing one is happy about. >-- though people regularly got it wrong and had to be >corrected. And, of course, it is a distinction made around about page 15 in >a good logic book. I think "waffle" is overgenerous and I suggest that we >have again fallen for the lowest common denominator. I don't think so. I think we have so many possibilities that have yet to be explored with the attitudinals, and no one will discover there are problems until they have to deal with misunderstandings like this one. The common denominator will be raised when more people have explored the alternatives. lojbab -- lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org