From jjllambias@hotmail.com Tue Jun 12 11:18:34 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 12 Jun 2001 18:18:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 74207 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2001 18:17:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 12 Jun 2001 18:17:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.241.69) by mta2 with SMTP; 12 Jun 2001 18:17:49 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:17:47 -0700 Received: from 200.49.74.2 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:17:47 GMT X-Originating-IP: [200.49.74.2] To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Subject: Re: [lojban] RE: zi'o and modals Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:17:47 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Jun 2001 18:17:47.0183 (UTC) FILETIME=[FB6FC3F0:01C0F36B] From: "Jorge Llambias" la ritcrd cusku di'e >ti botpi le djacu le blaci noda > >I was interpreting it as "this is a glass bottle of water with no x that >is a cap." I now see it as "It is false that this is a glass bottle >with water and some cap x." Exactly. >Except, now it bothers me even more that {ti botpi fo zi'o} doesn't >exclude the set of all bottles that *do* have caps. The way it is, how >would you say, unambiguously, that "this is a botpi, except without a >cap"? You could say for example: ti botpi fo zi'o secau lo gacri but you are not really talking about a botpi there, zi'o changes the realtionship to something else, and botpi is the weirdly specific bottle-content-material-cap relationship. Instead of using zi'o you could also talk of a {botpi simsa vasru} for example, or {clani vasru}, or something like that. Or (my favourite) forget that botpi has a fourth place and assume it only has three places like normal Lojbanic containers. mu'o mi'e xorxes _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.