From pycyn@aol.com Wed Jun 13 18:26:48 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 14 Jun 2001 01:26:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 56886 invoked from network); 14 Jun 2001 01:26:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 14 Jun 2001 01:26:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m04.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.7) by mta3 with SMTP; 14 Jun 2001 01:26:46 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.22.) id r.ea.16db09d0 (618) for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 21:26:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 21:26:40 EDT Subject: Re: attitudinals To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_ea.16db09d0.28596cd0_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10519 From: pycyn@aol.com --part1_ea.16db09d0.28596cd0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nice to see someone else's spleen for a change. The situation seems to be this. For the most part, the Book works just fine, except where it gets confused on the fundamental distinction between expressing an emotion (actually, it is worst on the cognitives) and claiming to have that emotion. That corrected, ther are generally no problems. The one exception so far noted is the case of {a'o}, which is generally taken to be a projection of a hope for the fulfillment of the mentioned state of affairs (whose occurrence is not yet settled in the mind of speaker). A couple of people-- one of them Lojbab -- claim that they at least sometime understand it to mean 1) that the attached claim is true and 2) to express a hope about some more remote (and unspecified) consequences of the occurrence of that mentioned state of affairs. Should this claim of a second meaning of {a'o} be borne out (and I can't see any real reason to doubt it, even if it does not work in English), then the possibility is opened that other attitudinals that generally do not presuppose the truth of the attached claim may also have such simultaneously veridical and remote expressive meanings. Conversely, the usual veridical and proximal expressive expressions, might also have non-veridical or remote expressive meanings. None of these have been suggested yet, so far as I can see. Until some are, let's concentrate on the situation with {a'o}, seeking a solution that 1) keeps as much of what works unscathed 2) can be generalized to other cases like {a'o}, 3) allows a fairly easy generalization to cases of the opposite sort if they arise. At the moment, I am sticking (in my mind) to a UI suffix in the xV'V area, for "aberrant behavior" after-attached to anything being considered: {a'o xu'a} for Lojbab's "the sentence is true and makes me hopeful" and that requires an immediate {iixu'a} by parity of reasoning. I don't, by the way, expect this will be the final solution, but it gives (as x's were meant to) a means of playing with the notions within the current rules. --part1_ea.16db09d0.28596cd0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nice to see someone else's spleen for a change.
The situation seems to be this. For the most part, the Book works just fine,
except where it gets confused on the fundamental distinction between
expressing an emotion (actually, it is worst on the cognitives) and claiming
to have that emotion. That corrected, ther are generally no problems. The one
exception so far noted is the case of {a'o}, which is generally taken to be a
projection of a hope for the fulfillment of the mentioned state of affairs
(whose occurrence is not yet settled in the mind of speaker). A couple of
people-- one of them Lojbab -- claim that they at least sometime understand
it to mean 1) that the attached claim is true and 2) to express a hope about
some more remote (and unspecified) consequences of the occurrence of that
mentioned state of affairs.
Should this claim of a second meaning of {a'o} be borne out (and I can't see
any real reason to doubt it, even if it does not work in English), then the
possibility is opened that other attitudinals that generally do not
presuppose the truth of the attached claim may also have such simultaneously
veridical and remote expressive meanings. Conversely, the usual veridical
and proximal expressive expressions, might also have non-veridical or remote
expressive meanings. None of these have been suggested yet, so far as I can
see. Until some are, let's concentrate on the situation with {a'o}, seeking
a solution that 1) keeps as much of what works unscathed 2) can be
generalized to other cases like {a'o}, 3) allows a fairly easy generalization
to cases of the opposite sort if they arise.
At the moment, I am sticking (in my mind) to a UI suffix in the xV'V area,
for "aberrant behavior" after-attached to anything being considered: {a'o
xu'a} for Lojbab's "the sentence is true and makes me hopeful" and that
requires an immediate {iixu'a} by parity of reasoning. I don't, by the way,
expect this will be the final solution, but it gives (as x's were meant to) a
means of playing with the notions within the current rules. --part1_ea.16db09d0.28596cd0_boundary--