From jjllambias@hotmail.com Tue Jun 19 16:38:40 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 19 Jun 2001 23:38:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 35702 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2001 23:38:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 19 Jun 2001 23:38:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.241.176) by mta1 with SMTP; 19 Jun 2001 23:38:40 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 19 Jun 2001 16:38:39 -0700 Received: from 200.41.247.45 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 19 Jun 2001 23:38:39 GMT X-Originating-IP: [200.41.247.45] To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Subject: Re: [lojban] dai harder (was: If it ain't broke, don't fix it (was: an approa... Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 23:38:39 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Jun 2001 23:38:39.0946 (UTC) FILETIME=[F7DE82A0:01C0F918] From: "Jorge Llambias" la lojbab cusku di'e > >la frank jinvi le du'u eikau la meris ti klama > >la frank jdice le du'u eipeikau la meris ti klama > >la frank jinvi le du'u la'akau la meris ti klama > >la frank jinvi le du'u ku'ikau la meris ti klama >Frank does not "think" or "opine" emotions. Frank emotes them. I don't think I anywhere said he did. How do you say "Frank thinks that Mary should come"? Or "Frank thinks that all flowers should be white"? If you don't like my way of saying it, you should provide a better one. >The other examples similarly seem to be short forms of some other more >clear predication where the UI word becomes the main predicate of the du'u >clause, such as > >la frank jinvi le du'u lakne fa lenu la meris ti klama That would be a similar opinion, yes, which does not invalidate the other way of saying it. >I can't come up with an alternative to the ku'i example because I don't >understand it even in English. Forget about the English, let's concentrate on the Lojban. >By the pattern of the Lojban sentences, the >ku'ikau would require that the contrast be something that Frank was >opining, and we don't have any clue as to the contrast. Yes, that is precisely what I meant. Context will give you the clue as to what is contrasted, as with any other use of {ku'i}. > >oidai le cukta na ciksi fo la'e di'u > >"The book does not explain it like that, you complain." > >Philosophically, this doesn't match the rest of the attitudinal system. i do la'e di'u xusra i mi do na tugni i no da zunti le nu do pilno zo dai le nu sinxa le do se zmanei i je'u a'o do ca'a pilno fi ba'e su'o da i mi'a pilno ji'o le nu nitcu mu'o mi'e xorxes _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.