From rob@twcny.rr.com Tue Jun 19 20:41:43 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: rob@twcny.rr.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 20 Jun 2001 03:41:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 61742 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2001 03:41:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 20 Jun 2001 03:41:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailout1.nyroc.rr.com) (24.92.226.146) by mta3 with SMTP; 20 Jun 2001 03:41:41 -0000 Received: from mail1.twcny.rr.com (mail1-1.nyroc.rr.com [24.92.226.139]) by mailout1.nyroc.rr.com (8.11.2/RoadRunner 1.03) with ESMTP id f5K3eIf28495 for ; Tue, 19 Jun 2001 23:40:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from riff ([24.95.175.101]) by mail1.twcny.rr.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59787U250000L250000S0V35) with ESMTP id com for ; Tue, 19 Jun 2001 23:40:16 -0400 Received: from rob by riff with local (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 15CYo8-0001Be-00 for ; Tue, 19 Jun 2001 23:37:32 -0400 Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 23:37:32 -0400 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: possible worlds Message-ID: <20010619233732.A4343@twcny.rr.com> Reply-To: rob@twcny.rr.com References: <8e.17392b9c.28616ace@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8e.17392b9c.28616ace@aol.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.18i X-Is-It-Not-Nifty: www.sluggy.com From: Rob Speer On Tue, Jun 19, 2001 at 10:56:14PM -0400, pycyn@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/19/2001 8:10:08 PM Central Daylight Time, > thinkit8@lycos.com writes: > > > > how about this? "if i were rich i'd have a house" goes to > > "fau le nu mi ricfu kei mi ponse lo zdani". i don't like using the > > UI cmavo to do this either, but i think there are substitutes. > > > > Nice, but what does it have to do with possible worlds? (the answer "nothing" > is to its advantage) Is it clearly superior to {ganai mi ricfu gi mi ponse > lo zdani}. The latter is, I suppose uninterestingly true, the former appears > to be false or of uncertain -- and uncertainly obtainable -- truth value. > So, as assertions, the advantage seems to lie with {ganai} form. But if this > is something else than an assertion, it does seem to move over into the area > of UI: intentions, hopes, and the like. Eep. No. Even I, the vehement supporter of more widespread use of logical connectives, say that you absolutely can't translate that with {ganai} or anything of the sort. Since the statement presupposes that you are not rich, the {ganai mi ricfu} part is necessarily true. I thank xorxes for pointing out the existence of {da'i}; it seems to fit the bill. However, what if you are describing someone else hypothesizing a possible world? Do you use {da'idai} and get into two murky areas at once? And do you use {da'i} with an ordinary logical connective, like: {ganai da'i mi ricfu gi mi ponse lo zdani} ? I still don't find this as elegant as Loglan's {foi} and {fio}; those would be similar to Lojban modals or tenses, which would have a more useful role in the grammar of the sentence than a UI cmavo. However, at least this doesn't seem to leave a gaping conceptual hole in the language, and I suppose it's the best we can realistically achieve within the baseline. -- Rob Speer