From araizen@newmail.net Fri Jun 22 05:32:22 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: araizen@newmail.net X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 22 Jun 2001 12:32:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 17574 invoked from network); 22 Jun 2001 12:32:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 22 Jun 2001 12:32:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO f19.egroups.com) (10.1.2.136) by mta1 with SMTP; 22 Jun 2001 12:32:22 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: araizen@newmail.net Received: from [10.1.4.68] by f19.egroups.com with NNFMP; 22 Jun 2001 12:32:20 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:32:20 -0000 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: zi'o and modals Message-ID: <9gvdsk+95pg@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1566 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 62.0.182.42 From: "Adam Raizen" la xorxes cusku di'e > If we go by the keywords, klama is volitional and muvdu non-volitional. I don't really see this. "Move" can be very volitional. ("I moved to the side.") Also, I don't know what the connection is between volition and the means of moving/coming/going is. I can move the box in a car, in which case I would have to use "klama" to specify the full relationship, even though presumably the box doesn't have any volition. Also, it seems strange that Lojban makes a volitional/non-volitional distinction here. The only other place I can think of is with "gasnu" vs. "zukte", which was meant to be general enough to add the distinction to anything. > But both are much more restrictive than their natlang cognates. > Especially muvdu, which only works for displacements and not for > motion in general. And we can't even get the general notion from > its opposite, "still", because we don't have a clear word for > that one either... I would use "desku" and "toldesku" for that, even though the English keyword is a bit more specific than what we want. > >i ta'o mi so'iroi kucli le du'u makau valsi la'o zoi bring zoi la > >lojban i le ka bevri cu la'a nibli le ka jgari i xu zo muvgau e zo > >klagau cu dukse le ka malxebro srana > > i ka'e mapti i ku'i pe'i zo muvgau cu simsa zo benji i na sarcu > fa le nu le muvgau cu muvdu i ju'ocu'i zo klakansa a zo klakangau > so'iroi mapti i mu'a lu ko klakangau le cukta do ti li'u ka'e se > smuni zoi zoi bring the book with you zoi i ie pe'i su'o le se stidi cu mapti ro te pilno mu'o mi'e adam