From pycyn@aol.com Mon Jun 25 19:53:44 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 26 Jun 2001 02:53:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 91037 invoked from network); 26 Jun 2001 02:53:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 26 Jun 2001 02:53:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r05.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.101) by mta3 with SMTP; 26 Jun 2001 02:53:43 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-r05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.22.) id r.a2.15f3da0a (4050) for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 22:53:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 22:53:37 EDT Subject: Re: [lojban] Proper 21CI To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_a2.15f3da0a.28695331_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10519 From: pycyn@aol.com --part1_a2.15f3da0a.28695331_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/25/2001 6:50:11 PM Central Daylight Time, phma@oltronics.net writes: > On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, pycyn@aol.com wrote: > Amos 6:1-7: > >unaisadai oiro'osaidai doi do poi surla vi la zion gi'e > > {unaisadai} looks like a typo - {sa} is used in speech when you have said > erroneous words, and erases to the previous occurrence of the next word, > which > is {dai}, of which there isn't any. Should be {sai} > I think oiro'i, oiro'a, and oiro'o all apply, so it should just be > {oisaidai}. > By the way, the Hebrew word is "hoy", which is where {oi} came from. > s/zion/tsion/ > I'd drop {do poi} - the {do'u} makes it clear the whole phrase is a > vocative. Can't get it to parse, even down to the {gi'e} without the {poi}" ot soesn't like subordinate sumti, with or without {be} > > >cinmo leka snura kei vi le cmana be la samarias do'u no'u > > s/samarias/comron/ > Not sure which is better: {la comRON noi cmana} or {le cmana be la comRON}. At this time the land seems to have been called Omri, after a recent king -- at least in external records. We need to get some rules about Biblical names. I have fallen into using the Western ones for recognizability, but probably should go with the originalsfor Lojbanic consistency. > > >le misno be le pamoi be loi natmi be'o be'o ku noi se klama > >le zdani be la .isra,el > >.i ko ravyklama la kalnex gi'e zgana gi'e bazibo klama la > > {ravyklama} (or {ravykla} is correct for `ivru. I wonder if they were called Hebrews already enough to make this another prophet-style joke. Pretty thin! > > >xamat poi banli gi'e bazibo nanklama la gat pe lai filistin > > {xamat noi banli} - there's only one xamat, isn't there? Or does it mean > "Greater Hamath", Hamath and its suburbs? Incidental relative clause, maybe something like "the so-called great" intended but the parser would not take {no'u le banli}. > > >(xu do xauzma lepuzi se liste natmi .ija xu le tutra be do > > I'd say {le di'u natmi} - {puzi} is a tense marker. I was shooting for "the just listed," but, of course, {liste} is not agentive. I've lost some of the intermediate forms, but I think the parser did not like {di'u} there, since I have not used it since. > s/ija/i/ - "or" is a rhetorical device here, not a logical conjunction. > > >cu brazma le tutra be ri) > >.i xu le puzi se liste cu xauzma le re vi natmi .ija xu le > >tutra be ra cu brazma le tutra be do > >doi do poi dargau le palci djedi gi'e jbigau le vlile nu > >pajni > >.i uinaisaidai oiro'osaidai doi do poi vreta lo xantydenmai > >se jadni ckana vau gi'e preja lodo sfofa vau gi'e citka lo > > {xantydenmai se jadni ckana} translates the English, but the Hebrew just > says > "mitot shen" or "beds of tooth". I don't think {preja} is right. True, but all the commentators and LXX say "ivory," which makes sense. {preja} is iffy at best but nicely colorful-- the picture of some fat absentee landlord as slime. > > >cmalanme befi da ku e lo cmabakni pe ra'i lo cidja selsru > > I'd say {zanselcu'a ciflanme} - but that's translating the English. What > does > "karim" mean? Well," fat ram" is one possibility, as well as "lamb" -- "lamb" is more likely to be a delicacy. But {cif} is more to the point than {cma}. > > >vau gi'e se kansa be lo jgita ku sanga lo bebna gi'ebo finti > > I think "navel" here is a different word than the one that means "fool". Texts seem to vary here: some have a musical instrument of some sort (nevel = "viol" in KJV), others "navel," which means either disgraceful or wicked or foolish (so I suppose is a colloquialism for homosexual, like "raqa," etc.) but the latter goes best with "parat" which seems to mean "to talk baby talk" or some such thing, inter alia.I've combined the two versions. > > >sepa'a la david lo cnino zgike gi'e pinxe lo vanju lo > >ri'irbaktu gi'ebo pejgau lo xagrai grasu vo'a gi'e ku'i na > >badri lenu la iosep se daspo > >.iseki'ubo loi ca se skicu bazi pamoi loi vlile se bevri > >befo lovo'a zdani .ije le te salci befi le preja bazi se > >sisti > > When you think it's good, go ahead and put it in CVS. > Thanks for the help. Not CVS yet (and I can't do that anyhow -- it shorts out windows on my machine). --part1_a2.15f3da0a.28695331_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/25/2001 6:50:11 PM Central Daylight Time,
phma@oltronics.net writes:


On Mon, 25 Jun 2001, pycyn@aol.com wrote:
Amos 6:1-7:
>unaisadai oiro'osaidai doi do poi surla vi la zion  gi'e

{unaisadai} looks like a typo - {sa} is used in speech when you have said
erroneous words, and erases to the previous occurrence of the next word,
which
is {dai}, of which there isn't any.


Should be {sai}

I think oiro'i, oiro'a, and oiro'o all apply, so it should just be
{oisaidai}.
By the way, the Hebrew word is "hoy", which is where {oi} came from.

s/zion/tsion/
I'd drop {do poi} - the {do'u} makes it clear the whole phrase is a
vocative.


Can't get it to parse, even down to the  {gi'e} without the {poi}" ot soesn't
like subordinate sumti, with or without {be}


>cinmo leka snura kei vi le cmana be la samarias do'u  no'u

s/samarias/comron/
Not sure which is better: {la comRON noi cmana} or {le cmana be la comRON}.


At this time the land seems to have been called Omri, after a recent king --
at least in external records.  We need to get some rules about Biblical
names.  I have fallen into using the Western ones for recognizability, but
probably should  go with the originalsfor Lojbanic consistency.


>le misno be le pamoi be loi natmi be'o be'o ku noi se klama
>le zdani be la .isra,el
>.i ko ravyklama la kalnex gi'e zgana gi'e bazibo klama la

{ravyklama} (or {ravykla} is correct for `ivru.


I wonder if they were called Hebrews already enough to make this another
prophet-style joke.  Pretty thin!



>xamat poi banli gi'e bazibo nanklama la gat pe lai filistin

{xamat noi banli} - there's only one xamat, isn't there? Or does it mean
"Greater Hamath", Hamath and its suburbs?


Incidental relative clause, maybe something like "the so-called great"
intended but the parser would not take {no'u le banli}.


>(xu do xauzma lepuzi se liste natmi .ija xu le tutra be do

I'd say {le di'u natmi} - {puzi} is a tense marker.

I was shooting for "the just listed," but, of course, {liste} is not
agentive.  I've lost some of the intermediate forms, but I think the parser
did not like {di'u} there, since I have not used it since.



s/ija/i/ - "or" is a rhetorical device here, not a logical conjunction.

>cu brazma le tutra be ri)
>.i xu le puzi se liste cu xauzma le re vi natmi .ija xu le
>tutra be ra cu brazma le tutra be do
>doi  do poi dargau le palci djedi gi'e jbigau le vlile nu
>pajni
>.i uinaisaidai oiro'osaidai doi do poi vreta lo xantydenmai
>se jadni ckana vau gi'e preja lodo sfofa vau gi'e citka lo

{xantydenmai se jadni ckana} translates the English, but the Hebrew just
says
"mitot shen" or "beds of tooth". I don't think {preja} is right.

True, but all the commentators and LXX say "ivory," which makes sense.  
{preja} is iffy at best but nicely colorful-- the picture of some fat
absentee landlord as slime.




>cmalanme befi da ku e lo cmabakni pe ra'i lo cidja selsru

I'd say {zanselcu'a ciflanme} - but that's translating the English. What
does
"karim" mean?


Well," fat ram" is one possibility, as well as "lamb" -- "lamb" is more
likely to be a delicacy.  But {cif} is more to the point than {cma}.


>vau gi'e se kansa be lo jgita ku sanga lo bebna gi'ebo finti

I think "navel" here is a different word than the one that means "fool".


Texts seem to vary here: some have a musical instrument of some sort (nevel =
"viol" in KJV), others "navel," which means either disgraceful or wicked or
foolish (so I suppose is a colloquialism for homosexual, like "raqa," etc.)
but the latter goes best with "parat" which seems to mean "to talk baby talk"
or some such thing, inter alia.I've combined the two versions.

>sepa'a la david  lo cnino zgike gi'e pinxe lo vanju lo
>ri'irbaktu gi'ebo pejgau lo xagrai grasu vo'a gi'e ku'i na
>badri lenu la iosep se daspo
>.iseki'ubo loi ca se skicu bazi pamoi loi vlile se bevri
>befo lovo'a  zdani .ije le te salci befi le preja bazi se
>sisti

When you think it's good, go ahead and put it in CVS.

Thanks for the help. Not CVS yet (and I can't do that anyhow -- it shorts out
windows on my machine).
--part1_a2.15f3da0a.28695331_boundary--