From Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de Thu Jun 28 11:12:54 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 28 Jun 2001 18:12:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 74786 invoked from network); 28 Jun 2001 18:12:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 28 Jun 2001 18:12:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fj.egroups.com) (10.1.10.46) by mta1 with SMTP; 28 Jun 2001 18:12:22 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de Received: from [10.1.4.74] by fj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 28 Jun 2001 18:12:22 -0000 Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 18:12:20 -0000 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Alis in Yiddishland Message-ID: <9hfs24+a7vi@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010627184152.00b0ed28@postoffice.pacbell.net> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 3522 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 62.104.218.66 From: "A.W.T." --- In lojban@y..., Edward Cherlin wrote: > At 02:38 PM 6/26/2001, A.W.T. wrote: > >--- In lojban@y..., Edward Cherlin wrote: > >...Refoyl Finkel's Alis in Vunderland, Kapitel 1, Arof dem > > > krolik-lokh. It was published in Der Bavebter Yid, and is now availab= =3D=0D le at > > > http://www.cs.uky.edu/~raphael/bavebter/numer.1.2/sholem.alis.html. > > > >I think Yiddish (Jiddisch) is a pretty appropriate "tool" for "Alice"=20 > >because - despite being a "ridiculous" mediaeval Middle- > >German dialect ;-) >=20 > High German, according to my sources. Germans are jus= =3D=0D t=20 > jealous that Jews have preserved the language better. (And their racial=20 > purity, also) Asbestos isn't too good for health ;-) "High German" (Hochdeutsch) first of all is the modern common language (pro= =3D=0D pagated by the media). In classifying the Germanic languages, there's a "Hochdeutsche Gruppe" (Hig= =3D=0D h German group, maybe better Upper German group)=20 distinct from the "Niederdeutschen Gruppen" (Lower German groups) appearing= =3D=0D about 500 AD. Subgroups are "Oberdeutsch"=20 (Upper German) - with Upper Frankonian etc. - and "Mitteldeutsch" (Middle G= =3D=0D erman) - with "Rheinfr=E4nkisch" and=20 "Moselfr=E4nkisch Ripuarisch" (in the West) and other dialects in the East. Beginning with the 10th century, jews from Romance language regions came to= =3D=0D Rhine and Danube areas developing their new=20 language (mame loshn) on the "Middle German" base.=20 > >- it's been polished by intellectual use for logic (or nonsensical)=20 > >reasoning. Just deplorable my deficiencies of > >reading the texts in Hebrew characters. > >BTW, the romanization isn't a real transcription, but following the=20 > >English pronunciation rules: It shouldn't be given as "Alis in > >Vunderland" but "Alis in wunderland" since the V-sound is a "double-u"=20 > >(=3Dvv) in the Hebrew character text (according the German > >spelling of the v-sound). >=20 > Actually, it should be 'V', because it is in the standardized YIVO=20 > romanization of Yiddish, and is not German. You're right, since there seems to be this YIVO standard mentioned by. BTW,= =3D=0D I didn't compare the romanization with German, but=20 just with the Hebrew spelling itself, where the double-u is given instead o= =3D=0D f a "v"! Remember that - unlike in English - not only in=20 Yiddish, but also in Polish and German the v-sound is represented by a dou= =3D=0D ble-u (=3Dw). =20 > English: 'Twas brillig > Deutsch: Es Brillig war > Idish (YIVO): Es var brilg Should be "Es war Brillig" in German. >From the Alice Hebrew script, the transliteration is the following: Alis in wunderland. Fun Luis Kerel; jidish: Sh. Berger Ershter kapitl. Arof dem krolik-lokh. Alisn iz geworn langweilik fun zitsn bei der shwester beim breg im, un fun = =3D=0D nisht hobn wos tsu ton. Ein mol tsi tswei mol hot zi a=20 kukl gegebn in bukh, wos di shwester hot geleient - nor s'hot nisht gehat k= =3D=0D ein bilder oder shtuesn "un wos tueg a bukh on bilder=20 oder shtuesn?" hot Alis a kser geton. Derfal hot zikh ir getrabt - (uif wi = =3D=0D gut s'hat gekent, weil der heiser tog hot zi gemabt seier a=20 lepishe un farshlofene) tsi der fargenign fun a prentsl margeritkes - wen m= =3D=0D it a mol iz farbeigelofn gants noent a weiser krolik mit=20 roze uign. (It's really nice! BTW, the word "geleient" is Roman heritage: "legere"; th= =3D=0D e word "kser" - Geseires - still in use in Southern=20 German dialects, although Hebrew.)=20 .aulun.