Subject: Re: Alis in Yiddishland

From: "A.W.T." <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 18:12:20 -0000

--- In lojban@y..., Edward Cherlin <edward.cherlin.sy.67@a...> wrote:
> At 02:38 PM 6/26/2001, A.W.T. wrote:
> >--- In lojban@y..., Edward Cherlin <edward.cherlin.sy.67@a...> wrote:
> >...Refoyl Finkel's Alis in Vunderland, Kapitel 1, Arof dem
> > > krolik-lokh. It was published in Der Bavebter Yid, and is now availab=
le at
> > > http://www.cs.uky.edu/~raphael/bavebter/numer.1.2/sholem.alis.html.
> >
> >I think Yiddish (Jiddisch) is a pretty appropriate "tool" for "Alice" 
> >because - despite being a "ridiculous" mediaeval Middle-
> >German dialect ;-)
> 
> High German, according to my sources. <dons asbestos suit>Germans are jus=
t 
> jealous that Jews have preserved the language better. (And their racial 
> purity, also)<will wait to see whether it is safe to remove asbestos suit=
>

Asbestos isn't too good for health ;-)
"High German" (Hochdeutsch) first of all is the modern common language (pro=
pagated by the media).
In classifying the Germanic languages, there's a "Hochdeutsche Gruppe" (Hig=
h German group, maybe better Upper German group) 
distinct from the "Niederdeutschen Gruppen" (Lower German groups) appearing=
about 500 AD. Subgroups are "Oberdeutsch" 
(Upper German) - with Upper Frankonian etc. - and "Mitteldeutsch" (Middle G=
erman) - with "Rheinfränkisch" and 
"Moselfränkisch Ripuarisch" (in the West) and other dialects in the East.
Beginning with the 10th century, jews from Romance language regions came to=
Rhine and Danube areas developing their new 
language (mame loshn) on the "Middle German" base. 

> >- it's been polished by intellectual use for logic (or nonsensical) 
> >reasoning. Just deplorable my deficiencies of
> >reading the texts in Hebrew characters.
> >BTW, the romanization isn't a real transcription, but following the 
> >English pronunciation rules: It shouldn't be given as "Alis in
> >Vunderland" but "Alis in wunderland" since the V-sound is a "double-u" 
> >(=vv) in the Hebrew character text (according the German
> >spelling of the v-sound).
> 
> Actually, it should be 'V', because it is in the standardized YIVO 
> romanization of Yiddish, and is not German.

You're right, since there seems to be this YIVO standard mentioned by. BTW,=
I didn't compare the romanization with German, but 
just with the Hebrew spelling itself, where the double-u is given instead o=
f a "v"! Remember that - unlike in English - not only in 
Yiddish, but also in Polish and German the v-sound is represented by a dou=
ble-u (=w).
 
> English: 'Twas brillig
> Deutsch: Es Brillig war
> Idish (YIVO): Es var brilg

Should be "Es war Brillig" in German.

>From the Alice Hebrew script, the transliteration is the following:
Alis in wunderland. Fun Luis Kerel; jidish: Sh. Berger
Ershter kapitl.
Arof dem krolik-lokh.
Alisn iz geworn langweilik fun zitsn bei der shwester beim breg im, un fun =
nisht hobn wos tsu ton. Ein mol tsi tswei mol hot zi a 
kukl gegebn in bukh, wos di shwester hot geleient - nor s'hot nisht gehat k=
ein bilder oder shtuesn "un wos tueg a bukh on bilder 
oder shtuesn?" hot Alis a kser geton. Derfal hot zikh ir getrabt - (uif wi =
gut s'hat gekent, weil der heiser tog hot zi gemabt seier a 
lepishe un farshlofene) tsi der fargenign fun a prentsl margeritkes - wen m=
it a mol iz farbeigelofn gants noent a weiser krolik mit 
roze uign.
(It's really nice! BTW, the word "geleient" is Roman heritage: "legere"; th=
e word "kser" - Geseires - still in use in Southern 
German dialects, although Hebrew.) 

.aulun.