From edward.cherlin.sy.67@aya.yale.edu Sat Jun 30 08:00:50 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Edward.Cherlin.SY.67@aya.yale.edu X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 30 Jun 2001 15:00:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 50999 invoked from network); 30 Jun 2001 15:00:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 30 Jun 2001 15:00:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pltn13.pbi.net) (64.164.98.22) by mta3 with SMTP; 30 Jun 2001 15:00:49 -0000 Received: from mcp.aya.yale.edu ([216.103.90.93]) by mta8.pltn13.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0GFR002R80DCTH@mta8.pltn13.pbi.net> for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 08:00:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 17:41:50 -0700 Subject: [OT] Yiddish (was Re: [lojban] Re: Alis in Yiddishland) In-reply-to: <9hfs24+a7vi@eGroups.com> X-Sender: cherlin@postoffice.pacbell.net To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Message-id: <5.1.0.14.0.20010628162552.02818988@postoffice.pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010627184152.00b0ed28@postoffice.pacbell.net> From: Edward Cherlin At 11:12 AM 6/28/2001, la .aulun. wrote: >--- In lojban@y..., Edward Cherlin wrote: > > At 02:38 PM 6/26/2001, A.W.T. wrote: > > >--- In lojban@y..., Edward Cherlin wrote: > > >...Refoyl Finkel's Alis in Vunderland, Kapitel 1, Arof dem > > > > krolik-lokh. It was published in Der Bavebter Yid, and is now avail= ab=3D > >le at > > > > http://www.cs.uky.edu/~raphael/bavebter/numer.1.2/sholem.alis.html. > > > > > >I think Yiddish (Jiddisch) is a pretty appropriate "tool" for "Alice" > > >because - despite being a "ridiculous" mediaeval Middle- > > >German dialect ;-) > > > > High German, according to my sources. >"High German" (Hochdeutsch) first of all is the modern common language (pr= o=3D > >pagated by the media). >In classifying the Germanic languages, there's a "Hochdeutsche Gruppe" (Hi= g=3D > >h German group, maybe better Upper German group) >distinct from the "Niederdeutschen Gruppen" (Lower German groups) appearin= g=3D > > about 500 AD. Subgroups are "Oberdeutsch" >(Upper German) - with Upper Frankonian etc. - and "Mitteldeutsch" (Middle = G=3D > >erman) - with "Rheinfr=E4nkisch" and >"Moselfr=E4nkisch Ripuarisch" (in the West) and other dialects in the East= . >Beginning with the 10th century, jews from Romance language regions came t= o=3D > > Rhine and Danube areas developing their new >language (mame loshn) on the "Middle German" base. >From Ethnologue: YIDDISH (JIDDISCH, JUDEO-GERMAN) [YDD] ... Indo-European, Germanic, West, Continental, High. ... It branched off medieval High German (mainly Rhenish dialects) and received= =20 Modern German influences during the 19th and early 20th centuries. Is there a misalignment between the German and English terminology for=20 historical German dialects?