From pycyn@aol.com Fri Jul 13 09:31:11 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 13 Jul 2001 16:31:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 11968 invoked from network); 13 Jul 2001 16:29:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 13 Jul 2001 16:29:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r01.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.97) by mta2 with SMTP; 13 Jul 2001 16:29:56 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-r01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31.7.) id r.108.2851c9c (4510) for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2001 12:29:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <108.2851c9c.28807bfd@aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 12:29:49 EDT Subject: Sorta about attitudes and assertions and the like To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_108.2851c9c.28807bfd_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10519 From: pycyn@aol.com --part1_108.2851c9c.28807bfd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the heady ferment that arose from injecting a leaven of logic into the stodgy wort of linguistics, when they were morte theories about what a grammar should be than Indians to try the theories out on (so that I had to exchange feather for dot, hence hantovirus for Plasmodium malariae, so that I ended up with as Quechua terrier, famous for his Peruvian bark -- but I digress), one class of theories held that almost all surface sentences derived from deep NPs, the objects of speech-act verbs. Each of the different (classes of) speech-act verbs permitted -- even encouraged -- a somewhat different range of moves to get from this secret structure to what actually came out the mouth or onto paper. Thus one fully formed deep sentence could give rise to a variety of surface sentences depending on which of the moves were used and, conversely, a single surface sentence might be derivable from a variety of sources with different speech-act verbs at least. Strictly, this last is not quite correct, since there was often the assumption that either context would fix a unique source or features of presentation would, but these consideration were, as usual, not systematically develped beyond the ad hoc hypothesis-saving stage. In any case, this theory (whatever its overall value) sheds some light on two parts of the recent discussion: the difference between expressing and assserting and the relation between the effects of attitude indicators and the related brivla. On the first, consider for now a deep sentence (on this view) Express(I, Happy(I, Come(she))) (skipping messy details, of course). The simplest surface of this would be English "Yay!" (or some such -- pick your favorite) or Lojban {ui} ,involving the derivation: dropping the source of happiness (context covers), stressing "Express" over the predicate component. Next would be either "Yay, she's coming" ~ {ui ko'a klama} (without the dropping) or "I'm happy!" ~ {mi gleki} (lowering the force of express over the predicate). Next would come "I'm happy that she's coming" ~ {mi gleki lenu ko'a klama} (with both changes, but still, note, an expression, not an assertion). And finally would be "I am expressing my happiness (/that I am happy) that she is coming" ~ {mi cnisku le gleki lenu ko'a klama}. This last, having no concealed speech-act head, is in the default speech act, probably informative. On the other hand, Inform (I, you, Happy(I, Come (she))) allows only two moves: to "I am happy that she is coming" ~ {mi gleki lenu ko'a klama} and "I am informing you that I am happy that she is coming" ~ {mi datnydu'a lenu mi gleki lenu ko'a klama}. The first of these is apparently identical with the next to last in the expressive series. This is a fact of life in English, i.e., that "I am happy (that...)" is ambiguous. Is it so in Lojban or must the derivation rules for Lojban -- in this system -- be different at this poiint, requiring, say, that {ui} remain even when {mi gleki} appears? As to the second problem, the point is clear: sentences that turn up attached to (attitudinals), begin their linguistic life subordinate to the corresponding predicates and thus are subject to whatever requirements those predicates place on them. We could then resolve the issue of whether a particular attitudinal is factive or not by considering the corresponding predicate. More difficult question in use could be resolved by returning to the full form, with all the predicates as predicates. Provided we can figure what predicates go with what attitudinals and what the predicates do to their subordinated clauses. And what is subordinated to what in strings of attitudinals (the sentence that started this round on attitudinals had several of them in a clump and different views about commitment of the kernel might reduce to different views about subordination: what does "modifies the preceding word" mean exactly in these cases. --part1_108.2851c9c.28807bfd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the heady ferment that arose from injecting a leaven of logic into the
stodgy wort of linguistics, when they were morte theories about what a
grammar should be than Indians to try the theories out on (so that I had to
exchange feather for dot, hence hantovirus for Plasmodium malariae, so that I
ended up with as Quechua terrier, famous for his Peruvian bark -- but I
digress), one class of theories held that almost all surface sentences
derived from deep NPs, the objects of speech-act verbs.  Each of the
different (classes of) speech-act verbs permitted -- even encouraged -- a
somewhat different range of moves to get from this secret structure to what
actually came out the mouth or onto paper. Thus one fully formed deep
sentence could give rise to a variety of surface sentences depending on which
of the moves were used and, conversely, a single surface sentence might be
derivable from a variety of sources with different speech-act verbs at least.
 Strictly, this last is not quite correct, since there was often the
assumption that either context would fix a unique source or features of
presentation would, but these consideration were, as usual, not
systematically develped beyond the ad hoc hypothesis-saving stage.  
In any case, this theory (whatever its overall value) sheds some light on two
parts of the recent discussion: the difference between expressing and
assserting and the relation between the effects of attitude indicators and
the related brivla.  

On the first, consider for now a deep sentence (on this view) Express(I,
Happy(I, Come(she))) (skipping messy details, of course).  The simplest
surface of this would be English "Yay!" (or some such -- pick your favorite)
or Lojban {ui} ,involving the derivation: dropping the source of happiness
(context covers), stressing "Express" over the predicate component.  Next
would be either "Yay, she's coming" ~ {ui ko'a klama}  (without the dropping)
or "I'm happy!" ~ {mi gleki}  (lowering the force of express over the
predicate).  Next would come "I'm happy that she's coming" ~ {mi gleki lenu
ko'a klama} (with both changes, but still, note, an expression, not an
assertion).  And finally would be "I am expressing my happiness (/that I am
happy) that she is coming" ~ {mi cnisku le gleki lenu ko'a klama}.  This
last, having no concealed speech-act head, is in the default speech act,
probably informative. On the other hand, Inform (I, you, Happy(I, Come
(she))) allows only two moves: to "I am happy that she is coming" ~ {mi gleki
lenu ko'a klama} and "I am informing you that I am happy that she is coming"
~ {mi datnydu'a lenu mi gleki lenu ko'a klama}.  The first of these is
apparently identical with the next to last in the expressive series.  This is
a fact of life in English, i.e., that "I am happy (that...)" is ambiguous.  
Is it so in Lojban or must the derivation rules for Lojban -- in this system
-- be different at this poiint, requiring, say, that {ui}  remain even when
{mi gleki} appears?

As to the second problem, the point is clear: sentences that turn up attached
to (attitudinals), begin their linguistic life subordinate to the
corresponding predicates and thus are subject to whatever requirements those
predicates place on them. We could then resolve the issue of whether a
particular attitudinal is factive or not by considering the corresponding
predicate. More difficult question in use could be resolved by returning to
the full form, with all the predicates as predicates.  Provided we can figure
what predicates go with what attitudinals and what the predicates do to their
subordinated clauses.  And what is subordinated to what in strings of
attitudinals (the sentence that started this round on attitudinals had
several of them in a clump and different views about commitment of the kernel
might reduce to different views about subordination: what does "modifies the
preceding word" mean exactly in these cases.
--part1_108.2851c9c.28807bfd_boundary--