From pycyn@aol.com Sat Jul 14 19:13:34 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 15 Jul 2001 02:13:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 67192 invoked from network); 15 Jul 2001 02:13:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 15 Jul 2001 02:13:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d05.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.37) by mta1 with SMTP; 15 Jul 2001 02:13:33 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31.7.) id r.12a.16c9538 (2617) for ; Sat, 14 Jul 2001 22:13:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <12a.16c9538.28825646@aol.com> Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 22:13:26 EDT Subject: RE: [lojban] the formal grammars' utility To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_12a.16c9538.28825646_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10519 From: pycyn@aol.com --part1_12a.16c9538.28825646_boundary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_12a.16c9538.28825646_alt_boundary" --part1_12a.16c9538.28825646_alt_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/14/2001 8:18:28 PM Central Daylight Time, a.rosta@dtn.ntl.com writes: > No, the index lists for each phrase the phrases it occurs within, but > it doesn't tell us whereabouts in the YACC grammar text itself the > rule can be found; one has to flick through the pages hunting fairly > randomly. > Not quite randomly; the pieces come in long blocks which are then jumbled together in no apparent order (and no explanation for the higgledy-pigglediness): 501-725 on pages 513-516 905-1025 pp 516-7 0-499 pp 517-533 801-824 pp 533-5 905-1101 (dodging earlier 9xx) 533-542 --part1_12a.16c9538.28825646_alt_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/14/2001 8:18:28 PM Central Daylight Time,
a.rosta@dtn.ntl.com writes:


No, the index lists for each phrase the phrases it occurs within, but
it doesn't tell us whereabouts in the YACC grammar text itself the
rule can be found; one has to flick through the pages hunting fairly
randomly.

Not quite randomly; the pieces come in long blocks which are then jumbled
together in no apparent order (and no explanation for the
higgledy-pigglediness):
501-725 on pages 513-516
905-1025 pp 516-7
0-499 pp 517-533
801-824 pp 533-5
905-1101 (dodging earlier 9xx) 533-542

--part1_12a.16c9538.28825646_alt_boundary-- --part1_12a.16c9538.28825646_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-xb03.mx.aol.com (rly-xb03.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.104]) by air-xb03.mail.aol.com (v79.27) with ESMTP id MAILINXB38-0714211828; Sat, 14 Jul 2001 21:18:28 -0400 Received: from mu.egroups.com (238.yahoo.240.211.64.in-addr.arpa [64.211.240.238]) by rly-xb03.mx.aol.com (v79.20) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXB36-0714211811; Sat, 14 Jul 2001 21:18:11 -0400 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-8598-995159821-pycyn=aol.com@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 15 Jul 2001 01:17:01 -0000 X-Sender: a.rosta@dtn.ntl.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 15 Jul 2001 01:17:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 72004 invoked from network); 15 Jul 2001 01:17:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 15 Jul 2001 01:17:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO relay3-gui.server.ntli.net) (194.168.4.200) by mta1 with SMTP; 15 Jul 2001 01:17:00 -0000 Received: from m676-mp1-cvx1b.bir.ntl.com ([62.255.42.164] helo=andrew) by relay3-gui.server.ntli.net with smtp (Exim 3.03 #2) id 15LaHq-0000XB-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 15 Jul 2001 02:01:30 +0100 To: "Lojban@Yahoogroups. Com" Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010714124253.00b6c2b0@127.0.0.1> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: "And Rosta" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 02:16:11 +0100 Subject: RE: [lojban] the formal grammars' utility Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lojbab: > At 04:40 PM 07/14/2001 +0100, And Rosta wrote: > >1. What use is the EBNF grammar, given that it can't be used instead of > >YACC? > > Some people find it easier to understand than the YACC grammar because the > rules are compressed into a more language-grammar-like form. Am I mistaken in thinking that the EBNF in the book contains less info than the YACC? For instance, trying to answer my own question of earlier today about DOI, I find that "vocative415 = (COI [NAI])...& DOI", but find nothing about the expansion of DOI, whereas I do find this info under vocative_35 and DOI_415 in YACC. > >2. Is there a downloadable version of YACC ordered alphabetically (or > >in any way such that one knows whereabouts in the rule list to find the > >expansion for a given node)? > > The YACC grammar in the Book has an index that provides this. No, the index lists for each phrase the phrases it occurs within, but it doesn't tell us whereabouts in the YACC grammar text itself the rule can be found; one has to flick through the pages hunting fairly randomly. > >3. Has anybody created a more succinct but unabbreviated (and, ideally, > >more intuitive) version of the YACC grammar? > > You just said why people use the EBNF. If the YACC grammar could be more > succinct, we would. The EBNF covers the whole language, so it is more > succinct and unabbreviated. Its weakness is that it is not proven > equivalent to the YACC, so mistakes in obscure places could still surface. I thought I understood EBNF, but as I said above I don't grock how it is unabbreviated. --And. To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --part1_12a.16c9538.28825646_boundary--