From araizen@newmail.net Sat Jul 21 16:30:37 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: araizen@newmail.net X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 21 Jul 2001 23:30:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 60192 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2001 23:30:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 21 Jul 2001 23:30:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n33.groups.yahoo.com) (10.1.2.114) by mta1 with SMTP; 21 Jul 2001 23:30:21 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: araizen@newmail.net Received: from [10.1.10.107] by ei.egroups.com with NNFMP; 21 Jul 2001 23:30:21 -0000 Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 23:30:21 -0000 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: goi Message-ID: <9jd3ad+pghr@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1553 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 62.0.182.48 From: "Adam Raizen" la and cusku di'e > If that is an observation about actual Lojban usage, then yes. > But otherwise, no. I hold that any specific referent can be > introduced into the discourse by means of a ko'a, and that > {le broda} = {ko'a noi je'u cu'i ke'a broda}. Veridical specifics, > which are common in English, cannot be rendered in Lojban by > a gadri and so for these ko'a is the only usage option. (In > practise, of course, people prefer to use a gadri and do > without veridicality.) Another possible way to do this, without using "ko'a", would be with "makau". It seems that, in addition to its regular function (or maybe this is another way to describe its regular function), "kau" indicates a large amount of specificity. For example, in "mi djuno le du'u makau klama le zarci", "da" is a referent of "makau" in many (probably most) cases, but it's not what is meant by the person saying the sentence. Thus, I think that "le broda" is basically equivalent to "makau poi ke'a broda" (ignoring your veridicality issues, though I'm sure you can get them back if you want). In addition, a phrase like "how I learned Lojban" should sometimes be something like "makau poi ta'i ke'a mi cilre fi la lojban" and not "ta'i makau mi cilre fi la lojban", since the English sometimes refers to a method, and not a proposition. For example "He learned Lojban how I learned Lojban" -> "ko'a cilre fi la lojban ta'i makau poi ta'i ke'a mi cilre fi la lojban". At least it avoids "ko'a", which most people want to look for a previous referent for. mu'o mi'e adam