From a.rosta@dtn.ntl.com Fri Jul 27 19:15:37 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: a.rosta@dtn.ntl.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 28 Jul 2001 02:15:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 50131 invoked from network); 28 Jul 2001 02:15:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 28 Jul 2001 02:15:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO relay3-gui.server.ntli.net) (194.168.4.200) by mta1 with SMTP; 28 Jul 2001 02:15:36 -0000 Received: from m54-mp1-cvx1b.bir.ntl.com ([62.255.40.54] helo=andrew) by relay3-gui.server.ntli.net with smtp (Exim 3.03 #2) id 15QJOS-0002mY-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 28 Jul 2001 02:59:53 +0100 To: Subject: RE: [lojban] conversion lujvo Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 03:14:40 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <114.1f347e3.288a3a7e@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: "And Rosta" steven lytle: > why are lujvo of converted gismu preferred over the bare converted gismu? > e.g. why is [selcasnu] used instead of [se casnu] in the nuzban headings? it > seems to me that [se casnu] should be used, since it's simpler and its > component words are basic ones. There are no really good reasons for this, and on the whole it is to be deprecated, because {selcasnu} would usually be used to mean {se casnu}, yet since {selcasnu} needn't be truthconditionally equivalent to {se casnu}, the use of {selcasnu} *ought to* (but in actual usage doesn't) imply that it is not truthconditionally equivalent to {se casnu}. I suspect, though, that there is a half-decent semiconscious rationale for the usage of {selcasnu} to mean {se casnu}. It is a way to try to avoid the logically improper (i.e. unmotivated) foregrounding of the x1 place. x1 and non-x1 places are semantically equivalent and undifferentiated (i.e. there is no semantic import to the property of being a non-x1 sumti) but certain constructions (e.g. sumti tail) require extra words (i.e. SE) to be used to 'access' non-x1 places. Using {selcasnu} levels the playing field syntactically, though not phonologically. --And.