From pycyn@aol.com Mon Jul 30 01:33:28 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 30 Jul 2001 08:33:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 66158 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2001 08:33:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 30 Jul 2001 08:33:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d02.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.34) by mta1 with SMTP; 30 Jul 2001 08:33:27 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-d02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31.9.) id r.e8.184c8e98 (8391) for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2001 04:33:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 04:33:20 EDT Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: goi To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_e8.184c8e98.289675d0_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10531 From: pycyn@aol.com --part1_e8.184c8e98.289675d0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/29/2001 2:04:19 PM Central Daylight Time, araizen@newmail.net writes: > I think it's a natural expansion of the use in subordinate clauses. > Q-kau is replaced by the most specific and relevant thing that is > grammatical and makes the bridi true. For example: > > mi djuno le du'u le nanmu cu citka makau > I know what the man eats. (i.e. I know that the man eats X, where x > is the most specific and relevant thing to make the bridi true.) > > le nanmu cu citka makau > The man eats it. (The specific thing that he eats.) > > le nanmu cu citka makau poi kukte ny > The man eats the thing that's tasty for him (the specific thing.) > (basically the same as 'le nanmu cu citka le kukte be ny') > > I think it's similar to "le su'o da", but "makau" can refer to no da, > and also there are forms like "mokau", "jikau", etc. > I see some of the apparent generalization involved: We might well translate your last example as "The man eats what is tasty to him", where the "what is tasty to him" might be an indirect question. But, as your gloss suggests, it might also be a relative clause -- and that seems more likely. So {ko'a poi kukte ny} is a more natural direct translation and {le kukte be ny} the better style. Now, if the a good case for using the other {kau} forms could be made, we might want to reconsider all that. The {makau} without a relative clause just seems unintuitive at the moment. --part1_e8.184c8e98.289675d0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/29/2001 2:04:19 PM Central Daylight Time,
araizen@newmail.net writes:


I think it's a natural expansion of the use in subordinate clauses.
Q-kau is replaced by the most specific and relevant thing that is
grammatical and makes the bridi true. For example:

   mi djuno le du'u le nanmu cu citka makau
   I know what the man eats. (i.e. I know that the man eats X, where x
is the most specific and relevant thing to make the bridi true.)

   le nanmu cu citka makau
   The man eats it. (The specific thing that he eats.)

   le nanmu cu citka makau poi kukte ny
   The man eats the thing that's tasty for him (the specific thing.)
   (basically the same as 'le nanmu cu citka le kukte be ny')

I think it's similar to "le su'o da", but "makau" can refer to no da,
and also there are forms like "mokau", "jikau", etc.


I see some of the apparent generalization involved:  We might well translate
your last example as "The man eats what is tasty to him", where the "what is
tasty to him" might be an indirect question.  But, as your gloss suggests, it
might also be a relative clause -- and that seems more likely.  So {ko'a poi
kukte ny} is a more natural direct translation and {le kukte be ny} the
better style.  Now, if the a good case for using the other {kau} forms could
be made, we might want to reconsider all that.  The {makau} without a
relative clause just seems unintuitive at the moment. --part1_e8.184c8e98.289675d0_boundary--