From nicholas@uci.edu Fri Aug 03 02:14:02 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: nicholas@uci.edu X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 3 Aug 2001 09:14:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 25051 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2001 09:14:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2001 09:14:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO e4e.oac.uci.edu) (128.200.222.10) by mta3 with SMTP; 3 Aug 2001 09:14:01 -0000 Received: from localhost (nicholas@localhost) by e4e.oac.uci.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA05931; Fri, 3 Aug 2001 02:14:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: e4e.oac.uci.edu: nicholas owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 02:14:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: To: Cc: Nick NICHOLAS Subject: Well I guess you do learn something new every day... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Nick NICHOLAS Kudos to Adam Raisen, apologies to Robin Turner, reasonably polite and understanding beratements to John Cowan, thanks to Iain Alexander, wild-eyed incomprehension to Bob LeChevalier, and arched eyebrows to the rest of you for what I've just discovered, as a result of Adam's comments to my lessons: http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9708/msg00070.html Robin was right about {vo'a}, it turns out, and I was wrong. {vo'a}, in referring to the main bridi rather than the local bridi, does not behave like most reflexives in the world (which is why I thought we didn't do it.) There are clear reasons you would want vo'a to do so in Lojban, though, given that anaphora is more difficult the longer you go, and {ri} will do just as well as {vo'a} for a local bridi referent, but {ra} is unmanageable for a main bridi referent out of an abstraction. And Norwegian and Icelandic, amongst others, do have long-distance reflexives like this. Not mentioned in the Ref Grammar at all (in fact, it implies the opposite), but a 1997 email from Lojbab is enough to confirm to me that the mystical gloss of {vo'a} in the cmavo list still holds. And they ask why we need a dictionary... -- == == == == == == == == == == == == == == == == == == == Nick Nicholas, Breathing {le'o ko na rivbi fi'inai palci je tolvri danlu} nicholas@uci.edu -- Miguel Cervantes tr. Jorge LLambias