From araizen@newmail.net Fri Aug 03 07:40:39 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: araizen@newmail.net X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 3 Aug 2001 14:40:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 25497 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2001 14:38:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2001 14:38:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13.groups.yahoo.com) (10.1.10.91) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Aug 2001 14:38:31 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: araizen@newmail.net Received: from [10.1.10.101] by jj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 Aug 2001 14:38:31 -0000 Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 14:38:26 -0000 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Well I guess you do learn something new every day... Message-ID: <9ked12+vfot@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1724 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 62.0.183.222 From: "Adam Raizen" la nitcion. cusku di'e > Robin was right about {vo'a}, it turns out, and I was wrong. {vo'a}, in > referring to the main bridi rather than the local bridi, does not behave > like most reflexives in the world (which is why I thought we didn't do > it.) There are clear reasons you would want vo'a to do so in Lojban, > though, given that anaphora is more difficult the longer you go, and {ri} > will do just as well as {vo'a} for a local bridi referent, but {ra} is > unmanageable for a main bridi referent out of an abstraction. And > Norwegian and Icelandic, amongst others, do have long-distance reflexives > like this. Personally, I like the interpretation that the "vo'a" series refers to the places of the same bridi, so that it's easy to make reflexives with "vo'a" instead of "sevzi", which seems a bit malglico, and since it hasn't really been defined in anything really formal yet, it might still be that way. At any rate, as noted in the article, there's another way to do both of these. "le nei", "le se nei", etc. will work for the current bridi interpretation, and "le no'a", "le se no'a", etc. is basically equivalent to the main bridi interpretation of the "vo'a" series. The question is, in a sentence like "broda le nu brode le nu no'a", does the "no'a" refer to the brode-ing or the broda-ing? I really can't come up with a good reason why it would refer to the bridi exactly one level up and not the main bridi. mi pensi le nu le nu no'a cu rinka le nu mi djuno Is it my thinking (likely) or being the cause (???) that makes me know. mi badri le nu do djuno le du'u no'a Does it mean that I'm sad that you know that I'm sad, or that you know that you know (that you know, etc.) mu'o mi'e adam.