From xod@sixgirls.org Fri Aug 03 14:21:44 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: xod@reva.sixgirls.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 3 Aug 2001 21:21:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 79539 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2001 21:21:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 3 Aug 2001 21:21:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO reva.sixgirls.org) (64.152.7.13) by mta3 with SMTP; 3 Aug 2001 21:21:42 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by reva.sixgirls.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f73LLec05931 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2001 17:21:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 17:21:38 -0400 (EDT) To: Subject: Re: [lojban] ce'u (was: vliju'a In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Invent Yourself On Fri, 3 Aug 2001, Jorge Llambias wrote: > > la xod cusku di'e > > >However, the problem may be worse than you state. Page 259, ex. 4.4: > > > > le ka do xunre cu cnino mi > > the property-of your being-red is new to me. > > > >Where is your ce'u there? In a place that's already filled! > > That should have been: > > le nu do xunre cu cnino mi > > We should not use {ka broda} just because broda happens to be > an adjective in English. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes Well, that's right out of the Book. I agree that it makes more sense with nu. Sometimes the book implies that the first empty sumti is the one that gets the implicit ce'u (ex. 4.2, 4.5 -- 4.8). Only ex. 4.4 assumes that it is the first place, even if that place is already filled with a sumti. However ex. 4.13 violates both of these, by saying that le ka dunda le xirma ce'u is a "possible interpretation" of ex. 4.11, which is le ka dunda le xirma It looks like And Rosta is correct; ce'u should really be used in every instance of ka. I would offer as an exception the case of a lujvo of the kambroda form, where the first place of the broda should really be assumed to hold ce'u! ni'o I recall a while ago I offered an analogy of ka:ce'u::du'u:makau, yet nobody else thought they were anything alike! But they seem directly parallel to me. Both are abstractions, and both ce'u and makau focus the abstraction into a certain place of the abstracted bridi. ----- We do not like And if a cat those Rs and Ds, needed a hat? Who can't resist Free enterprise more subsidies. is there for that!