Subject: ka + makau (was: ce'u (was: vliju'a

From: Invent Yourself <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 18:56:25 -0400 (EDT)

On Sat, 4 Aug 2001, And Rosta wrote:

> Xod:
> > ni'o I recall a while ago I offered an analogy of ka:ce'u::du'u:makau, yet
> > nobody else thought they were anything alike! But they seem directly
> > parallel to me. Both are abstractions, and both ce'u and makau focus the
> > abstraction into a certain place of the abstracted bridi.
>
> I see a vague similarity, but recall Jorge's example
>
> ko'a ko'e frica le ka ce'u prami ma kau
>
> "X differs from Y in who they love"
>
> showing that they can sensically cooccur.

If I managed to imply that they could never be combined, I'm sorry.

Jorge's sentence, which I cannot find in the Yahoo's archives using a
search, is very interesting. I haven't yet thought of a different way to
state that idea in Lojban, but I am not yet convinced that the Lojban
actually means the English sentence below it. Why does makau have any
meaning away from du'u?

du'u do prami makau
The identity of the thing you love

do prami makau
(What does it mean?)

I do recall that the last time around Jorge asked me how, without makau,
I could say "I know who goes to the store". I couldn't think of a way.
It's useful to have a focus for du'u!

How about:
da poi slabu mi zo'u da klama le zarci

Or, as will occur in fluent discussion, sidestep the issue completely:
da .i'u klama le zarci

du'u and du'u + makau seem so different that it seems to me the latter
should actually be considered a different abstraction. What about
gardenpathing with du'u + makau? Isn't this a problem, since the reader
can't tell beforehand if a makau is coming up?

Now look again at:

du'u do prami makau
The identity of the thing you love

Yet:

le selprami be do
The thing you love

Here we have a thing, and its identity (an abstraction of the thing?), but
the grammar is very different and doesn't reflect the simple relationship
between them. Is it time for lu'e?

lu'e le selprami be do
A symbol for the thing you love

Isn't that what I was looking for in answer to Jorge's question?

mi djuno lu'e le klama be le zarci
I know who goes to the store

lu'e isn't quite a du'u, but it is a piece of information, so I think it's
true to the intent of djuno. The sticklers can replace djuno with selsau
if they must.

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