From mark@kli.org Sun Aug 05 07:16:02 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: mark@kli.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 5 Aug 2001 14:16:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 76768 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2001 14:16:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 Aug 2001 14:16:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1.groups.yahoo.com) (10.1.10.40) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Aug 2001 14:16:01 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: mark@kli.org Received: from [10.1.2.51] by hh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 05 Aug 2001 14:16:01 -0000 Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 14:15:59 -0000 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: ka + makau (was: ce'u (was: vliju'a Message-ID: <9kjkev+hebt@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1461 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 162.33.229.2 From: mark@kli.org --- In lojban@y..., "Jorge Llambias" wrote: > > la and cusku di'e > > >Excellent point: yes, there is a risk of gardenpathing. In a sense, if > >we can get away with "du'u ... Q-kau", then we should be able to get > >away with "du'u ... ce'u" and dispense with ka. OTOH, if we need ka > >to forewarn us of the presence of a ce'u, then we need a new abstractor > >to forewarn us of the presence of Q-kau. > > The obvious candidate is {jei}, it already means {du'u xukau}. > > However, I don't remember ever being gardenpathed by "du'u...Q-kau". I thought that {jei}!={du'u xukau} and that was one of the reasons for {kau} in the first place. Correct me if I misremember. It was something along the lines of {le jei broda} means either "true" or "false"... to the extent that truth or falsity can be substituted for it. So {mi djuno le jei broda} means nothing more or less than "I know 'false'" or "I know 'true'", depending. This would make it less than useful, yes. I'm not sure I disagree with xod, that {du'u Xkau} is "the identity of...", or with And, that du'u + kau isn't *really* a du'u. We have had similar headaches about indirect questions in Klingon too, incidentally. I catch myself wondering, though, if this isn't something specific to words like {djuno} and {jinvi} and whatnot, and doesn't really need a general solution. More later, eventually; there's been a lot of stuff going on over the weekend I see. ~mark