From jjllambias@hotmail.com Mon Aug 06 08:23:17 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 6 Aug 2001 15:23:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 3517 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2001 15:23:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 6 Aug 2001 15:23:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.241.29) by mta3 with SMTP; 6 Aug 2001 15:23:16 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 08:23:16 -0700 Received: from 200.49.74.2 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 06 Aug 2001 15:23:16 GMT X-Originating-IP: [200.49.74.2] To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: ka + makau (was: ce'u (was: vliju'a Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 15:23:16 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Aug 2001 15:23:16.0667 (UTC) FILETIME=[B73E10B0:01C11E8B] From: "Jorge Llambias" la ~mark cusku di'e >I'm referring not so much to >{jei} but another abstractor: {ni}. The refgram even contradicts >itself. Yes it does. I have pointed out this contradiction before, which is more or less the same kind of double meaning that jei gets: one in the definition and another one (the indirect question one) in actual usage. (Another abstractor that suffers more or less from this is {su'u}, which as far as I know has only been used in the sense of {nu tai makau}, as in {ko viska le nu lei smacu cu bajra tai makau} =? {ko viska le su'u lei smacu cu bajra}.) >In order to use {ni} as it's used pretty much by everyone everywhere, >we have to say that a {ni} abstraction is also a sort of indirect >question, sort of like {du'u broda sela'i makau}. Actually, it is mostly used as {ni ce'u broda}={ka ce'u broda sela'i makau}. >{jei} SHOULD thus be {du'u >xukau}, but was prevented from being so by people saying "well, it >expands to a [0,1] value!" Exactly. Defining it as "the truth value of" pretty much means that, though. >Am I raving? Not at all. mu'o mi'e xorxes _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp