Subject: RE: [lojban] ka + makau (was: ce'u (was: vliju'a

From: "And Rosta" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 03:33:16 +0100

Jorge:
> la and cusku di'e
> 
> > > le nu xokau prenu cu zvati cu spaji mi
> >
> >But I'm a bit uncomfortable with that "nu xokau".
> 
> The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that {kau}
> is totally independent of the abstraction it is embedded in.
> Xod was right after all: "the answer" is just the sumti. But
> we were all wrong about the question. It is not the whole bridi
> containing {ma}. The question is just {ma}. So {makau} simply
> stands for the relevant answer to {ma}, whatever the context
> is, be it du'u, ka, or an appropriate attitudinal.

OK, but I now realize that there is an apparent ambiguity
in your example. I originally thought it meant "I'm surprised
how-many people there are" (which I still think may be what
you intended), in which case my original comments and attempt
to rephrase still stand.

However, based on your remarks (and assuming that your story
is correct), I think your sentence actually means something 
like "However many people there are here, their being here surprises 
me". In that case I have no objection to "nu xokau", but I
have a more fundamental objection to your Q-kau story, which
seems to lead to an ambiguity:

mi cucli tu'odu'u ma kau cliva
A. "I wonder who left"
B. "Whoever left, I'm curious about that they left."

mi do frica tu'odu'u ce'u prami ma kau
A. "Me and you differ in who we love"
B. "Me and you differ in loving them, whoever they are" 

??
A. I changed what my name is.
B. Whatever my name is, I changed it.

The Lojban exx standardly mean (A), but by your story I think they
ought to mean (B). I don't see any logical basis for restricting
(B)-type readings to only main bridi Q-kau. 

OTOH, you could insist that the B sentences would have to be:

ma kau goi ko'a zo'u mi cucli tu'odu'u ko'a cliva
ma kau goi ko'a zo'u mi do frica tu'odu'u ce'u prami ko'a 
ma kau poi cmene mi ku'o goi ko'a zo'u I changed ko'a

(If you were to insist this, then what I originally said about "nu xo 
kau" stands, and Q-kau can occur only within a du'u or a main
bridi.)

--And.