From Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de Wed Aug 08 13:29:19 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 8 Aug 2001 20:29:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 58607 invoked from network); 8 Aug 2001 20:28:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 8 Aug 2001 20:28:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11.groups.yahoo.com) (10.1.10.50) by mta1 with SMTP; 8 Aug 2001 20:28:44 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de Received: from [10.1.10.118] by c3.egroups.com with NNFMP; 08 Aug 2001 20:28:44 -0000 Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 20:28:41 -0000 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Transliterations survey Message-ID: <9ks7dp+6oc5@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 2160 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 193.149.49.79 From: "A.W.T." --- In lojban@y..., "And Rosta" wrote: > Aulun: > > Remember the French-Japanese movie "Hiroshima mon amour" long ago=20 > > with the =3D lovers pronouncing the city's name differently:=20 > > she (Japanese) somehow gives it as "Hrosma". >=20 > She is french. He is japanese. Which says "Hrosma"? He? Oh, you're correct! My excellent long-term memory was cheating me: Looking = =3D=0D through my collection of movie brochures=20 ("Illustrierte Film-B=FChne" etc.) I once collected are telling me: "Hirosh= im=3D=0D a mon amour" Alain Resnais, Emmanuele Riva & Eiji=20 Okada, script and dialogues Marguerite Duras(!). But how come you to know?!= =3D=0D (BTW, it's a pretty complicated story...). Yes, and it really has to be him (Japanese) to pronounce the name as "Hrosm= =3D=0D a", because a Japanese *female's* pronunciation most=20 probably would have been different. > (But I think you sort of missed Evgeny/Pierre's point, which is > that something like /xirosima/ & /xukusima/ is consistent not=20 > necessarily with a mapping between Lojban phonetics and Japanese=20 > phonetics but with a mapping between Lojban phonology and=20 > Japanese phonology.) No, don't think so. Creating cmene has to consider original phonetics and p= =3D=0D honology, but also intelligibility by others: although in=20 Japanese (bilabial) "f" and "h" don't seem to be phonems, there's no good r= =3D=0D eason not to give it using "f" in Lojban. (This might be=20 different e.g. with names like "Fujian" and "Hokkien" both equally known in= =3D=0D the world.) I don't think that it is necessary to always consider the origial's phonemi= =3D=0D cs: although in German language the "ich"- and "ach"- Lauts (and many "ch"s in between according to their position in the word!) = =3D=0D are not phonemic, whereas "ch" and "sh" are, it doesn't=20 matter to e.g. give "M=FCnchen" as {mincyn} or {minxyn} which both are - mo= re=3D=0D orless - intelligible (and both as far from the=20 correct native pronunciation). Russians e.g. make themselves understood say= =3D=0D ing "ix xap dix lip" (for I like/love you), when a=20 native French would be uttering "ic 'ab dic liib" for it - and also is unde= =3D=0D rstandable to a speaker of German. co'omi'e .aulun.