From jjllambias@hotmail.com Thu Aug 09 20:32:29 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 10 Aug 2001 03:32:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 42769 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2001 03:32:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 10 Aug 2001 03:32:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.241.176) by mta3 with SMTP; 10 Aug 2001 03:32:28 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 20:32:28 -0700 Received: from 200.41.247.44 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 10 Aug 2001 03:32:28 GMT X-Originating-IP: [200.41.247.44] To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Subject: RE: [lojban] ka + makau (was: ce'u (was: vliju'a Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 03:32:28 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Aug 2001 03:32:28.0615 (UTC) FILETIME=[14ACC570:01C1214D] From: "Jorge Llambias" la and cusku di'e > > le nu le xokau prenu cu zvati cu spaji mi > > That the (however many) people are here surprises me. > > > > That indeed means something like "However many people there are > > here, their being here surprises me". > >There doesn't have to be reference to anyone it particular. "they" >can have a nonspecific (bound variable) antecdent. I think I didn't explain well. Consider a specific case. What "their being here surprises me" can mean is: vo da poi prenu zo'u le nu da zvati cu spaji mi There are four x such that x being here surprises me. But my sentence can't mean that. It could mean: le nu vo da poi prenu zo'u da zvati cu spaji mi That there are four x here surprises me. The quantification is inside the surprise. Your version requires that it be outside. >So I don't think >you have adequately distinguished "It surprises me how many there >are here" and "However many there are, it surprises me that they're >here". One has the quantifier inside le spaji, the other outside. >Cf. "However many flies are in this room, it surprises me >that they're here" -- I'm not referring to any particular flies, >just to any flies that are here. That would go into Lojban as something like: xokau da poi sfani zo'u le nu da zvati cu spaji mi Different from: le nu xokau sfani cu zvati cu spaji mi mu'o mi'e xorxes _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp