Subject: RE: [lojban] Re: ka + makau (was: ce'u (was: vliju'a

From: "And Rosta" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 21:31:51 +0100

John:
> Bob LeChevalier (lojbab) scripsit:
> 
> > Mary knows that the tallest boy went to the store, does not mean that Mary 
> > knows that John went to the store if she does not know that John is the 
> > name of the tallest boy.
> 
> I deny this, even in English, 

I hope you will accept that, as with John knowing Ortcut is a spy, the
English is susceptible to a reading which does entail Mary knows John went
to the store and a reading which doesn't.

> but even more so in Lojban where names are at the discretion of the namer.

... which is one reason why I gag at having to use cmene. I'd much rather
use fu'ivla, but given that fu'ivla have to be unambiguous, it seems
untenable to have at least one fu'ivla per nameable entity in the universa,
or even per human being.

> If I know that the planet Venus has a surface temperature of 900 deg. C,
> then I know that the planet Freya has a surface temp. of 900 C,
> even if I do not know that Freya = Venus.

Factoring names out of the discussion, by, say, changing Freya to
"thing standardly called _freya_", I do agree with Lojbab: I think
"He knows that something called 'freya' is 900 deg" is false in
the relevant scenario, and to be true must be rephrased as

Something called freya is known by him to be 900 deg.
Something called Freya is such that he knows that it is 900 deg.

In Lojban, this is. I'm not talking about English now.

> In this hypo, I would be prepared to affirm "I do not know that
> the planet Freya has a surface temp. etc. etc.", but I would be
> in error.

mi very much na tugni

--And.