Subject: Re: [lojban] {kai'i}

From: Invent Yourself <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 06:11:25 -0400 (EDT)

On Mon, 13 Aug 2001, Bob LeChevalier (lojbab) wrote:

> At 03:18 AM 8/13/01 -0400, Invent Yourself wrote:
> >On Mon, 13 Aug 2001, Bob LeChevalier (lojbab) wrote:
> > > It is also VERY "Lojbanic" to allow ellipsis whenever possible. Ellipsis
> > > of ce'u is not really different from ellipsis of tense and number; it just
> > > happens to be one that is uniquely meaningful to Lojban.

Are you stating that ce'u can be elided because it's always assumed to be
in the first empty place? The Book examples indicate otherwise, unless I
am mistaken.

> >What I am talking about is more like having a special form of le that
> >accepts only one brivla, eliminating the need to put ku after it.
>
> It would thus have a different grammar from the rest of the sumti, actually
> *increasing* the complexity in terms of most ways to measure it. All it
> would save would be keystrokes.

If ka is a subset of du'u, and specifically if ka broda is equal to du'u
ce'u broda, then ka is in a similar position as that silly le + ku I
mentioned above.

>
> > > >It seems a lot more elegant to actually ditch ka,
> > > >with the exception of lujvo.
> > >
> > > We never attempted to design Lojban "elegantly". On the contrary, as a
> > > language workbench, we put a lot of expressive tools into the language
> > > which were of uncertain usability, with the expectation that some would be
> > > more useful than others and that this could differ based on one's native
> > > language.
> >
> >Did you ever suspect ka would be rejected, and du'u ce'u used instead?
>
> No. And indeed, ce'u was one of the last additions to the language before
> baselining, such that John had relatively little to write about it in the
> refgrammar.

What is there is sufficiently contradictory that I have agreed with And
Rosta's argument that ce'u should always be used with ka. Then ka becomes
redundant, except where the kam- rafsi is used.

And ka hasn't been "rejected", except perhaps by a couple of
> people who are participating in one discussion. I haven't been reading
> that thread closely, still use ka, and am not sure I've ever used ce'u.

I haven't rejected kam but I am experimenting with replacing ka with du'u
ce'u.

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