From Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Aug 14 00:51:12 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 14 Aug 2001 07:51:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 2391 invoked from network); 14 Aug 2001 07:51:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 14 Aug 2001 07:51:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2.groups.yahoo.com) (10.1.10.41) by mta1 with SMTP; 14 Aug 2001 07:51:11 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de Received: from [10.1.2.230] by hi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 14 Aug 2001 07:51:11 -0000 Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 07:51:10 -0000 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Transliterations survey Message-ID: <9lal9e+sca8@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <3B78AC21.71B433EB@earthlink.net> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 3502 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 193.149.49.79 From: "A.W.T." --- In lojban@y..., David Crowell wrote: > These are my evalutions (reasons they could be used, or languages in whic= =3D=0D h it > is transliterated (te xemfanvyle'u (or pronounced) on different > transliterations, with possible addition that > other or I originate (marked - and -- respectively) > Note the languages I mention might not use these, but I have seen them us= =3D=0D e it > with the same sound) >=20 > Muenchen (=3D Munich), Germany >=20 > munxen. (most recognizable due to modern German spelling) > miunxen to distinguish from Munchen (without umlaut), Russian, Japanese,= =3D=0D and > other commonly do the vowel this way. > minxen Greek (spelled mu-hypsilon (my), Yiddish, and possible others use > pronunciation due to thier transcription) > - muncen, muncyn (to my ears,. that is the way that Germans prounce -ch-= =3D=0D in > this word) > -- muinxen, (from Korean Yale transcription Mwinhey) I'd go for /minxen/ (the Yiddish, East-European, Hebrew pronunciation) sinc= =3D=0D e in Munich (Bavarian) dialect there also exists no=20 u-umlaut :-) BTW, the names's derivation is "munichen" (a locative meaning:= =3D=0D "at the monks'"), with the common rule that the=20 following "i" alters the "u" to u-umlaut! > Magyaroszag (=3D Hungary) (noting but ignoring the final. but irrelevant,= l=3D=0D ong > =E1 typo) Again: it's spelled "Magyaro*r*sz=E1g" (orsz=E1g=3Dland) > (appears to focus on palatal Hungary -gy, if I am correct the unvoiced > equivalent is Hungarian -ty) Correct: "ponty" (carp), "ty=FAk" (chicken) Here's one of my Hungarian tonguetwisters from my site for some training (l= =3D=0D isten to it): Gyere, Gyuri, a gyufagy=E1rba gyerty=E1t gyujtjunk!" (C'mon, Georgie, [let'= s go=3D=0D ] into the match fabric lightening candles!) > MAdiarosag. (fits, most accurately (if I remember correctly) with Hungari= =3D=0D an > pronunciation) > MAdjarosag. palatal d is sometimes pronounced as a dj, for example in the= =3D=0D > dialect of English I grew up with. There's a slight "i" ("j") sound after the palatal "d" > MAgiarosag. (fits only with Hungary spelling) The "i" is misleading since Hungarian "y" is not a vowel (except in some pr= =3D=0D oper names like Esterh=E1zy - which, following it's=20 pronunciation, should be given as "Eszterh=E1zi"). BTW, xod's proposal (on Wiki) is unacceptable: you never can give the Hunga= =3D=0D rian "a" as "y" (schwa). It is an "=E5" sound like in=20 Danish ("Kirkegaard") or Farsi ("Isfahan"), Bavarian dialect, Transsylvania= =3D=0D n Saxon (S=E5ksesh) etc. and can have bear stress.=20 (Don't mix it up with "-er" in British "finger"!) co'o mi'e .aulun. _________ =95_=A7=A7=A5H Cold in the North =A7@=A7=CB*=AC*"=A7T=A7=CB=B5=B5 Black sheen on one, / purpl' on ea= ch other side. *=BF=99e=B6B=B6X**=BFs=B6* The Yellow Stream - all ice, / so fish a= nd dragon di=3D=0D ed. =A7T=A7=FF=A7=CF=95=F7=AC_=A7=C2*z Tree barks, three foot - a scrip= t / of frost-cracked=3D=0D runes. =B6=A0=95=80=B1j=AE=C6=A7W=99e=A7=D9 Hundreds of hundredweights - /= cartloads on waters r=3D=0D ide. =A1=98=99=B7=D8=DB=A7W=A7j=B6p=F8=B7 Frostwork aground - big coins = / of silvery bloom. =A5=DF=A7M=A7=A3=A7J*g=BF=80=A7=97 Sword's blow will never wound / = the dark sky's misty=3D=0D gloom. =99=DF=D9]=C6=B8=A7=D9***=82*=9F Vying river and sea - / ice floes = in roaring flight.=3D=0D =A7s=ACr=B5L=A1n=95=85*i=83a A silent waterfall so still: / rainbow= from jasper s=3D=0D pume. (Li Ho, tr. A.W. Tueting - http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de/liho/LIHODB.RXML)