From Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de Tue Aug 14 14:15:21 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 14 Aug 2001 21:15:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 28804 invoked from network); 14 Aug 2001 21:14:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 14 Aug 2001 21:14:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n26.groups.yahoo.com) (10.1.2.134) by mta1 with SMTP; 14 Aug 2001 21:14:59 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de Received: from [10.1.10.64] by fg.egroups.com with NNFMP; 14 Aug 2001 21:14:59 -0000 Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 21:14:58 -0000 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Transliterations survey Message-ID: <9lc4ci+serc@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 1948 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 62.104.218.72 From: "A.W.T." --- In lojban@y..., Andrew Smith wrote: > As far as I know, when the Hungarians reformed their spelling system > sometime last century, names were exempted, and so are still spelt using > the old rules. >=20 > So the name Ra'koczi stayed as it is, but czukor (sugar) became cukor. > Likewise Eo"tvo"s and Eszterha'zy. This is correct: "cz" {ts} shifted to "c" (cz=E1r->c=E1r) whereas "cs" and = "sz=3D=0D " {tc/s} remained unaltered (cs=E1sz=E1r=3Demperor). "Czukor", common Jewish-Hungarian surname remained (cukor=3Dsugar). So part= ly=3D=0D did "We=F6r=F6s" (v=F6r=F6s=3Dblue-ish red). "T=F3oth" now usually is "T=F3th" (not unlike in Danish "aa" -> "=E5"); the= "th" =3D=0D has become simple "t". BTW, E=F6tv=F6s is the name of a well-known "gimn=E1zium" in lovely Tata. The final "-y" or "-yi" {ii} usually is an indicator for nobility (in a loc= =3D=0D ative function), like in "B=E1t(t)y=E1nyi" - not too=20 comparable, though, to German "Kissinger" as "the one from Kissingen/Franko= =3D=0D nia" ;-) > On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, John Cowan wrote: >=20 > > A.W.T. scripsit: > >=20 > > > The "i" is misleading since Hungarian "y" is not a vowel (except in s= =3D=0D ome pr=3D > > > oper names like Esterh=E1zy - which, following it's=20 > > > pronunciation, should be given as "Eszterh=E1zi"). > >=20 > > Hey, thanks. I've been pronouncing it with final palatalized "z" all > > this time, and wondering why "zy" is not mentioned in books on Hungaria= =3D=0D n.... As for myself, I'm still wondering why this famous aristocratic name is giv= =3D=0D en with "s" instead of Hungarian "sz" (while nonetheless=20=20 *not* being pronounced as {ecterxasi} - but this seems to be for historica= =3D=0D l reason. How do you pronounce "Rothschild"?; in German it is still {ro:tcilt} ("roth= =3D=0D " was the former spelling for "rot", which is "red").=20 Just asking because I found the common German-Jewish surname pronounced wit= =3D=0D h English "th" in N.Y. (and "Koch" {kox} which is=20 "cook" as {kotc}). .aulun.