From andrew@ling.ed.ac.uk Wed Aug 15 02:36:10 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: andrew@ling.ed.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 15 Aug 2001 09:36:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 39902 invoked from network); 15 Aug 2001 09:36:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 15 Aug 2001 09:36:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pisa.ling.ed.ac.uk) (129.215.204.69) by mta3 with SMTP; 15 Aug 2001 09:36:09 -0000 Received: from babel.ling.ed.ac.uk (babel.ling.ed.ac.uk [129.215.204.4]) by pisa.ling.ed.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04817; Wed, 15 Aug 2001 10:36:06 +0100 (BST) Received: from localhost (andrew@localhost) by babel.ling.ed.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA17523; Wed, 15 Aug 2001 10:36:06 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: babel.ling.ed.ac.uk: andrew owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 10:36:06 +0100 (BST) X-Sender: andrew@babel To: "A.W.T." Cc: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Transliterations survey In-Reply-To: <9lc4ci+serc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE From: Andrew Smith On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, A.W.T. wrote: > --- In lojban@y..., Andrew Smith wrote: > > As far as I know, when the Hungarians reformed their spelling system > > sometime last century, names were exempted, and so are still spelt usin= g > > the old rules. > >=20 > > So the name Ra'koczi stayed as it is, but czukor (sugar) became cukor. > > Likewise Eo"tvo"s and Eszterha'zy. >=20 > This is correct: "cz" {ts} shifted to "c" (cz=E1r->c=E1r) whereas "cs" an= d "sz=3D > " {tc/s} remained unaltered (cs=E1sz=E1r=3Demperor). > "Czukor", common Jewish-Hungarian surname remained (cukor=3Dsugar). So pa= rtly=3D > did "We=F6r=F6s" (v=F6r=F6s=3Dblue-ish red). Interesting that vo"ro"s is blue-ish red - I learnt it as being a deeper red than piros rather than bluer. So the Hungarian flag is piros-fehe'r-zo"ld (red-white-green), but the Soviet (red) army was the vo"ro"s hadsereg. > "T=F3oth" now usually is "T=F3th" (not unlike in Danish "aa" -> "=E5"); t= he "th" =3D > has become simple "t". > BTW, E=F6tv=F6s is the name of a well-known "gimn=E1zium" in lovely Tata. > The final "-y" or "-yi" {ii} usually is an indicator for nobility (in a l= oc=3D > ative function), like in "B=E1t(t)y=E1nyi" - not too=20 > comparable, though, to German "Kissinger" as "the one from Kissingen/Fran= ko=3D > nia" ;-) Is that just the same as the -i ending now, then, like pesti (from Pest) or even londoni (from London)? > As for myself, I'm still wondering why this famous aristocratic name is g= iv=3D > en with "s" instead of Hungarian "sz" (while nonetheless=20=20 > *not* being pronounced as {ecterxasi} - but this seems to be for histori= ca=3D > l reason. > How do you pronounce "Rothschild"?; in German it is still {ro:tcilt} ("ro= th=3D > " was the former spelling for "rot", which is "red").=20 > Just asking because I found the common German-Jewish surname pronounced w= it=3D > h English "th" in N.Y. (and "Koch" {kox} which is=20 > "cook" as {kotc}). As an English speaker in Britain, I pronounce Rothschild as something like [rOTstSajld], wherr O is the British English short o in `hot', which is unrounded in contrast to the American short o T is the unvoiced 'th' in 'thing', so as you had heard it pronounced S is the 'sh' in 'shoe' Quite a good quadri-consonantal cluster in the middle there! I suppose if saying it quickly you might drop the [T], mind you. Basically, as a rule of thumb, English speakers tend to mangle foreign names by pronouncing them as if they were English until anyone tells them different. There's also a lot of hyper-correction, where someone uses a `foreign' pronunciation of a letter, but from the wrong language. During the Falklands war 20 years ago (was it really that long ago?), the Argentine government was routinely referred to as the military junta - the finally word obviously just the Spanish word. At first, it was pronounced on the television news as [dZunta] as if it was an English word, then people tried to make it more foreign-sounding, so changed to [junta], with a glide like English y. Spanish speakers, of course, used [xunta], so when this was realised, the news changed again, this time to [hunta], avoiding the [x]. In the end there was no consensus, and the same person would use two or more pronunciations. Andrew Smith /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\ | _ _ Language Evolution & Computation |=20 | / \ _ __ __| |_ __ _____ __ Research Unit | | / _ \ | '_ \ / _` | '__/ _ \ \ /\ / / Department of Theoretical |=20 | / ___ \| | | | (_| | | | __/\ V V / & Applied Linguistics | | /_/ \_\_| |_|\__,_|_| \___| \_/\_/ University of Edinburgh | | ____ _ _ _ EDINBURGH |=20 | / ___| _ __ ___ (_) |_| |__ Scotland | | \___ \| '_ ` _ \| | __| '_ \ |=20 | ___) | | | | | | | |_| | | | andrew@ling.ed.ac.uk | = =20 | |____/|_| |_| |_|_|\__|_| |_| http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~andrew | \_______________________________________________________________________/