Subject: Retraction &c, Part 2

From: Nick Nicholas <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 03:46:25 -0700

7. Sense and Responsibility

7a. "Why Lojban?"

In the attitude to Lojban I will conventionally characterise as
'naturalistic', it is objected that 'hardliner' insistence on rigour
(particularly semantic rigour) places unwelcome constraints on creativity.

There are several "hardliner" responses to this. One, which was And's, is
"Why Lojban?" To elaborate, I rephrase it as "Why not Klingon?"

I know Klingon is a red flag to many here (including xod, to whom this is
primarily directed.) Allow me to explain (and, admittedly, to be
indifferent as to whether it's a red flag or not):

If all that is sought is that the language be alien from English, Lojban
certainly provides that. But it is not the only language that provides it.
Klingon does too. So does Chinese. And Tok Pisin.

Therefore, the hardliner (well, a hardliner. OK, me) argues, if you want to
play with Lojban, you may be free to be creative, but you have to accept
certain constraints on your creativity. Those constraints are to maintain
Lojban identifiable as Lojban. If you don't like the constraints Lojban
imposes, go use Klingon instead.

In fact, of course, noone is so die-hard a naturalist that they completely
reject the Lojbanic constraints. (Although I must admit to some hardliner
disquiet when I see Helsem laying down the law on what is or isn't
{lobykai}.) I am not therefore saying to xod or to anyone else "Go use
Klingon instead"; Heaven forbid! The issue is where the line is drawn. The
hardliner wants more constraints than the naturalist. But it should be
uncontroversial that a "Lojbanist of good faith" is already limited by the
constraints of Lojban grammaticality and *grosso modo* semantics. So I
cannot agree with xod's complaint: ".i aicai mi bazu ciska le banli ru'e
selsku bau ko'a .i ga'inai ganai mi tarti do gi na kakne" I may be making
life slightly more difficult for him, but I do not believe I am ultimately
depriving him of his expressive potential. (I think that's what xorxes'
"middle road" position on the Wiki on 'hardliner' is driving at, too.)

Whether compromise or mutually agreed boundaries on what is and isn't
Lojbanically acceptable can be negotiated, I cannot tell. I am much less
optimistic this week about it than I was last month. Once again, this is
now a community issue.

7b. "me loi jimte .e loi larcu"

The second response is more specific to xod's claim, so I will take the
liberty in answering in what is still {le kampu be mi joi la xod. bangu} :-)

.i mi basna ledu'u mi ca melu ga'inai li'u tavlai
.imu'ibo do ki'u da'i sruma ledu'u mi ctuca tavla; ki'u lenu mi pu lifri lo
panra be tu'a do
.i .ainai da'i mi ctuca tavla
(to .a'o do drani jimpe lenu mi pilno lu .ainai li'u makau .u'iru'e toi)

.i mi ca lenu co'a cilre lai lojban. cu ji'a djica lenu mi cusku loi banlu
.i mi ba'a fanva lo banli pu lenu cliva le merko kei mu'i lenu mi ca ji'a go'i
.i ku'i le ca sevzi be mi frica le pu sevzi be mi reda po'u:
lenu mi cilre loi bauske logji kei .e lenu mi cilre le bangrtlingana
.i mi pu co'a cilre tu'a loi bauske logji ba lenu co'a cilre la lojban.
.i ca lenu co'a cilre loi bauske logji kei; mi co'a jimpe ledu'u lei logji
cu carmi zmadu le se sruma be mi leni nandu
.i mi ca'o lenu di'anai cmima le lojbo cecmu cu sruma ledu'u mi jimpe loi
banzu pe loi logji
.ibabo mi facki ledu'u na ca'a jimpe gi'e seni'ibo co'a cumle tu'a loi logji
.i lenu go'i cu pagbu lei mukti be lenu mi di'a lojbo
.i ku'i pujeca lenu di'a cmima kei; mi cinmo ledu'u la lojban. cu ralju
xamgu lenu sidju lenu jimpe loi logji ke bangu stura
.i pe'isai la lojban. traji fo le ni plixau kei; ba'o lenu klina jimpyri'a
lo sidbo poi lo rarna bangu cu nalklina cusku
.i lenu la lojban. logji plixau cu ji'a se ckaji loka melbi
.i li'a melbi be na'ebo ro lojbo .i ku'i melbi co steci la lojban

ni'o di'a lenu mi cmima le lojbo cecmu kei mi co'a cmima le bangrtlingana cecmu
.i ca'o lenu bangrtlingana se cecmu kei; mi cilre reda poi mi na cilre ca'o
lenu
pare'u lojbo se cecmu
.i mi cilre ledu'u na'ebomi ca'a cremau mi lenu cuxna loi cnino tadji pe
lenu pilno lo runti bangu
.i mi po'o na ba'o finti ro pluka selsku bo tadji pe le bangrtlingana
.i mi so'eroi tinbe lo morna poi se stidi na'ebomi zi'enoi xagmau le pu se
stidi be mi
.i ca lenu mi cu'uku ca logji smuske xarnu kei do la'a jinvi ledu'u mi na
banzu tinbe le se jinvi be na'ebomi
.i ku'i ca lenu mi finti loi cnino skutadji kei mi cinmo leka banli gi'e na
djica lenu tinbe tu'a loi drata tadji kei; ki'u lenu lemi ka banli cu
seki'u jdika
.i lenu da go'i cu srera gi'e plixau da .enai le cecmu
.i ko rivbi la'edi'u

.i remai mi cilre ledu'u vajni fa le larcu se finti poi cupra ki'unai leka
se jimte
.i va'i le se jimte larcu selcupra cu pe'i zmadu le nalseljimte leni banli
.i seni'ibo mi jinvi ledu'u lo mintu fanmo linji pemci cu zmadu lo zifre
linji pemci leni ce'u banli ki'u lenu carmi se troci
.i lo mintu fanmo linji pemci lo zifre pemci cu ka'e mleca leni ce'u frili
se jimpe cusku lo se cinmo gi'eku'i zmadu leni fatne le saskrxentropia pe
le munje
.i pa'abo le tcini kujoi le cecmu vu'o pe le bangrtlingana cu carmi jimte
leka zifre cusku
.i seni'ibo pe'i le ca'a larcu se cupra pebau le bangrtlingana cu mutce
leni banli
.i mi bilga lenu na'e cusku la'edi'u kei ki'u lenu mi cupra su'o prosa
pebau le bangrtlingana
.iku'i lenu cupra lo xe fanva be la xamlet. be'o poi:
pilno lei cfika kulnrtlingana steci;
gi'e sinma lei tcila be le se fanva tarmi ja smuni
gi'e ji'a sinma lei tcila be le bangrtlingana poi ca'a se slabu ku'o;
gi'e frili se jimpe lei se bangrtlingana
--- cu jai nandu; gi'e semu'ibo xaurkrinu jai se jgira mi
.i lei tanru poi se finti la xelsem. cu xamgu gi'e so'iroi cinmo cpina
.i ku'i lenu cupra loi tanru na steci la lojban.
.i frili se gasnu sepi'o le jungo
.i pe'i lenu cupra loi tanru na banli .i na se jimte .i na nandu
.i na cipra leka ce'u finti lo larcu pluja poi steci la lojban. gi'e
ka'enai se cusku bau lo drata
.i lenu cupra lo pemci poi pilno zo zo'u (to pe loi kantu .enai loi
selcasnu toi); gi'e ku'i cinmo cpino --- cu zu'unai pe'i banli
.i ko zukte .a'eli'a le se cuxna be do
.i tu'a ko ku'i te javni su'o jimte
.i ci'e su'o jimte --- ko ko jivni

8. Proper lujvo

John mentions Mark's comment about fu'ivla vs. lujvo in Klingon, with
regard to lujvo that cannot intrinsically be understood a priori. I don't
know what Mark said about it here, but what happened was this:

I the undersigned was using in Klingon compounds which were indeed not a
priori intelligible. For example, 'music-skin' (QoQDIr) for drum. Mark
objected to them, calling them "hindsight words" and I accepted his
objection. However, to go along with the mythos, borrowing a word from
English was usually not an alternative. I either (a) coined a clearer
compound; (b) used a much vaguer word, and hoped noone noticed; (c) got
lucky, and found that Okrand subsequently invented a new word ('In 'drum')
for the concept after all.

xod, I *think*, believes it unreasonable that lujvo should be demanded to
be intelligible at first sight/a priori. John, I *think*, agrees, citing
the case of camcinki, and would be much happier with a fu'ivla for Web.
Very well; but I have to point out that this is not the conclusion we
arrived at in Klingon.

(And, by the by, since people are saying certain lujvo are better than
others, they are certainly using *some* criteria to evaluate them, and they
are not resigning themselves to the impossibility of such evaluation.)

9. Hardlinism.

Hardlinism is indeed ultimately signing up for an impossible task, as xod
characterised it. I can only answer that so is the whole of Lojban. I am
profoundly sceptical that human beings can, *in their conversational use of
Lojban*, really speak in LALR(1) grammar, and always remember not to
include {la} in Lojban names, and always remember to pause after vocatives.
That it is impossible does not mean we don't have a lot to learn from the
valiant attempt to do it anyway.

Specific to xod's points,

1mai: my understanding is that there exist transformations forming
unprenexed from prenexed sentences. Furthermore, all sumti in Lojban have
default quantifiers. Thus, Lojban sentences do all have unambiguously
recoverable prenexed forms. If that is what you meant by "le du'u le
kamlogji na stura su'o jufra", I don't agree. Of course some sentences
aren't logical, but (a) the lack of explicit prenexes doesn't make Lojban
{na carmi logji}, and (b) the real hardliner concern is of course not
second order logic per se anyway, but formalisation/explicitness.

2,3mai: Like I said, a semantic theory is ultimately unachievable, but that
does not make further formalisation of semantics not worthwhile or
intractable

4mai: What the {kambebna} is that Lojban is pure of is a subjective
judgement. A hardliner, of course, thinks it pure of more things than a
naturalist does.

***

If you've read this far, thank you for your indulgence.

I am clearly approaching Lojban quite differently to what I used to; as I
said in my monologue in Lojban above, I've learned some things that made me
change my mind, but I also think I've changed as a person.

It is possible that I am being petty in a lot of this. It is hard for me to
be humble, harder for me to admit I'm wrong, and hardest of all, I've now
learned, to realise that I may still think I'm right, but that doesn't mean
I'm going to have my way.

That said, I also think I'm thinking about Lojban quite differently to how
many others do. I obviously have some reevaluating to do.

So in translating the following passage from the conclusion to General
Makriyannis' _Memoirs_ --- a passage which never fails to move me to tears
--- I address this more to myself than to anyone else. As a reminder that
it is not all about me.

So, one last self-indulgence (which probably violated all my hardlinisms
anyway), and then I'm done:

...

ni'o naku mi po'o cusku la'edi'u
.i piro le cecmu .e le nuzba karni cu cusku
.i roda poi mi pinka ciska zo'u: mi ciska da mu'i lenu mi na curmydji lenu
leka tolpajvrude cu pe'a nalvasxu catra basti leka pajvrude
.i mu'ibo mi cilre le nunciska ca le nuntolcitno;
gi'e cupra ledei tolralci selciska
ki'u lenu mi na se ckaji le kamkakne ca lenu mi cifnu
.i mi pu pindi gi'e se jibri lo selfu gi'e vecnu loi xirma gi'e se cuntu
so'i drata jibri
mu'i lenu mi pleji le se dejni be lemi patfu be'o
poi loi zercpa cu dejnygau ku'o
.e lenu mi ji'a cmima le vi cecmu
ca'o lenu le fuzme se jbera befi la cevni cu se vasru lemi xadni
.i la cevni cu jdice lenu tolmrogau lemi natmi
gi'e to'e selrinjygau ri lenu le natmrtirkie cu kusru turni
.i semu'ibo la cevni cu jernygau mi lenu mi zukte lemi se kakne
noi pe'i mleca zu'i pe le xlarai natmyprami se natmrxelada
.i so'e prije nanmu cu te prosa
.i lo diklo ja fange ke karni cupra noi tcidu tu'a le natmrxelada cu te prosa
.i pa da mukti lenu mi ji'a te prosa
.i go'i fa lenu levi natmi cu kampu le gunma po'u ro ma'a
.i kampu le prije ku joi le nalcilre ku joi le ricfu ku joi le pindi ku
joi le turni ku joi le sonci ku joi le traji nalvajni prenu
.i roda poi ba'o damba zo'u: roda noi zukte le se kakne zo'u: da xabju le
ba'e vi gugde .ei
.i semu'ibo ma'a ba'o gunma zukte gi'e seki'ubo co'a gunma bandu ri
.i le vlipa .ei na cusku zo mi
.i ji'a le ruble .ei na cusku zo mi
.i ko djuno ledu'u ca makau ro prenu cu .e'a cusku zo mi
.i da ca lenu da pamei lenu dabma jeke zbasu ja daspo cu .e'a cusku zo mi
.i ku'i da ca lenu da so'imei lenu dabma je zbasu cu .e'a cusku zo ma'a
.i mi ca jai cedra tu'a zo ma'a .enai zo mi
.i .a'o ma'a co'a cilre loi se prije
mu'i le da'i nu ma'a djica lenu zbasu lo kampu se xabju gi'e simkansa jmive

fe'o

Nick Nicholas, TLG, UCI, USA. [email-masked] www.opoudjis.net
"Most Byzantine historians felt they knew enough to use the optatives
correctly; some of them were right." --- Harry Turtledove.