From arosta@uclan.ac.uk Thu Aug 23 05:56:34 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: arosta@uclan.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 23 Aug 2001 12:56:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 53040 invoked from network); 23 Aug 2001 12:55:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 23 Aug 2001 12:55:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO com1.uclan.ac.uk) (193.61.255.3) by mta1 with SMTP; 23 Aug 2001 12:55:35 -0000 Received: from gwise-gw1.uclan.ac.uk by com1.uclan.ac.uk with SMTP (Mailer); Thu, 23 Aug 2001 13:34:05 +0100 Received: from DI1-Message_Server by gwise-gw1.uclan.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 14:01:00 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5.2 Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 14:00:36 +0100 To: jcowan Cc: lojban Subject: Re: [lojban] ce'u Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline From: And Rosta >>> John Cowan 08/22/01 08:55pm >>> #And Rosta wrote: #> The rationale for li'i was an amputee's real experience of an unreal eve= nt. #> It creates an intensional context # #But so does nu. An event labeled with nu need not have happened #(le nu co'e cu na fasnu). And likewise, {le prenu cu na fasnu}, {le prenu cu na zasti}. Without wanting to rehash or reopen old but unsolved debates, it creates known logicophilosophical problems when we say talk about=20 individuals that don't exist in this world, by saying that they have certain properties in this world. I'm not saying that this creates nonsense -- after all, we do intuitively feel it appropriate to be able to say that there is a famous detective denizen of 221b Baker Street that we admire -- but at the same time we DO want some way to make it clear when we are talking about something that does exist in this world -- the import of "There is a dog with 5 legs" is very different if we're talking about real dogs from if we're talking about imaginary dogs. Now, returning to li'i, the experience exists in the real world but the event the experiencer perceives themselves to have experienced does not. So when we are using the mechanisms for talking only about realworld entities, whatever those mechanisms turn out to be, li'i broda will not be equivalent to li'i le nu broda. --And.