From arosta@uclan.ac.uk Thu Aug 23 07:12:30 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: arosta@uclan.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 23 Aug 2001 14:12:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 72884 invoked from network); 23 Aug 2001 14:09:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 23 Aug 2001 14:09:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO com1.uclan.ac.uk) (193.61.255.3) by mta1 with SMTP; 23 Aug 2001 14:09:21 -0000 Received: from gwise-gw1.uclan.ac.uk by com1.uclan.ac.uk with SMTP (Mailer); Thu, 23 Aug 2001 14:47:58 +0100 Received: from DI1-Message_Server by gwise-gw1.uclan.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 15:14:52 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5.2 Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 15:14:22 +0100 To: lojban Subject: RE: sts- [was: RE: [lojban] Brochure updates Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline From: And Rosta Nick: #And buffer vowel or no buffer vowel, the fact that we can have clusters #as crunchy as ml- and mr- and -rnl- in the first place means Lojban is #hardly well-equipped for a urination competition with Esperanto.=20 As Lojbab once pointed out, those clusters are at least intervocalic in most environments. And anyway, if you can buy the idea that there can be such a thing as a phoneme with no defined realization, then the buffer vowel is real and there are no true clusters at a phonological level. #After all, who on earth would be primarily attracted to Lojban because of #*euphony* --- and then not run screaming the first time they see a {ce'u}? Anecdote: I first heard of (or became interested in) Lojban (as opposed to = Loglan) is a message posted to Conlang by John in which he translated=20 something or other (some kind of Prolog program, I seem to recall) into=20 Lojban. And incredible as it may seem (& it certainly does to me), I was=20 entranced by its rhythmic and segmental euphony. All I can remember now=20 is that the rhythm was dactyllic/anapestic and that it contained the word=20 "jonja'e". Nowadays I find Lojban so excruciatingly ugly that it genuinely causes me palpable pain to read or write it. --And.