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[Wikichanges] Wiki page BPFK Section: sensory gismu changed by gleki
The page BPFK Section: sensory gismu was changed by gleki at 10:30 UTC
You can view the page by following this link:
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK%20Section%3A%20sensory%20gismu
You can view a diff back to the previous version by following this link:
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-pagehistory.php?page=BPFK%20Section%3A%20sensory%20gismu&compare=1&oldver=6&newver=7
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- !la gleki's solution
+ !la gleki's first (aggressive) proposal
is to replace the current set of sensory predicates with another one.
The scheme is still not complete. Let's put all sensory aspects into one table.
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In gua\spi there are a bit better definitions, e.g. {xel=X1 smells like prototype (xi) X2*}.
+
+ !la gleki's second (compromise) proposal
+
+ In order to reach maximum compatibility with the current gimste I can also suggest mergin x2 and x3 in my previous proposal getting
+
+ Alternate proposal
+ {HEAR} - x1 hears object(e.g. musician/sound)/event x2 (e.g. mi tirna lo nu balzgibende cu cladu)
+ {SEE} - x1 sees object/event x2 (mi viska lo du'u lo tricu cu crino)
+ {SMELL} - x1 smells object/event x2 (mi sumne lo nu lo xrula cu cpina)
+ {TASTE} - x1 tastes object/event x2 (mi me'oi TASTE lo nu lo plise cu titla)
+ {TOUCH} - x1 touches x2 (mi me'oi TOUCH-FEEL lo nu lo sefta cu rufsu)
+
+ I also suggest that x2 in all 5 sensory gismu can be both an object and an event, thus allowing sumti-raising
+ so that we can say
+ ''mi tirna lo balzgibende
+ mi tirna lo cladu
+ mi tirna lo nu balzgibende cu cladu ''
+
+ We have no gismu for TASTE ( {vrusi} has no place for experiencer) and TOUCH-FEEL ({pencu} is now what we need. when i touch {ko'a} with a screwdriver i touch-feel the screwdriver but touch {ko'a} ).
+ We would also need to allow in {sumne2} not only the object being smelled but the type of smell and abstraction for the combination of the object and it's smell.
This is something that definitely needs revision.
We have five senses and we must clearly express what we feel.
-
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The new page content follows below.
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Taken from two mailing list messages:
[http://mail.lojban.org/lists/lojban-list/msg33823.html|pamoi]
[http://mail.lojban.org/lists/lojban-list/msg33824.html|remoi].
Sense words can either express experiencing the sensation or expressing an action being taken to acquire a sensation. In English, these are:
||__Active__|__Passive__
look | see
listen | hear
touch | feel
sniff | smell
taste | taste
||
In Lojban, there are few dedicated gismu:
|| |__Active__|__Passive__
sight| catlu | viska
sound| | tirna
touch| pencu |
scent| | sumne
taste| |
__generic__| zgana | ganse
||
There are two options of lujvo. Naming based on the sensory organ gives:
|| |__Active__|__Passive__
sight| kalzga | kalga'e
sound| kerzga | kerga'e
touch| pilzga | pilga'e
scent| zbizga | zbiga'e
taste| tacyzga|tacyga'e
||
Naming based on the thing being sensed gives:
|| |__Active__|__Passive__
sight| vinzga | vinga'e
sound| snazga | snaga'e
touch| te'uzga|te'urga'e
scent| panzga | panga'e
taste| vu'izga|vu'irga'e
||
!la gleki's first (aggressive) proposal
is to replace the current set of sensory predicates with another one.
The scheme is still not complete. Let's put all sensory aspects into one table.
These are the predicate that we might get (I will give them temporary names in curly brackets).
{HEAR} - x1 hears object(e.g. musician)/event (e.g. concert) x2, listens to it and defines x2 as x3 (noisy, loud, sweet, lovely, romantic etc.)
{SEE} - x1 sees object/event x2, looks at x2 and defines it as x3 (green, that it looks ugly etc.)
{SMELL} - x1 smells object/event x2, observes x2 and defines it as x3 (e.g. flowery,pungent, musk)
{TASTE} - x1 tastes object/event x2, observes x2 and defines it as x3 (e.g. tasty, sweet,sour)
{TOUCH} - x1 touches x2, observes (tries) x2 and defines it as having texture x3 (e.g. rought)
As you can see we actually need valsi with three places. "observe" is a variation of each predicate that can be best expressed using additional {jundi} or {zgana}.
This scheme is consistent. The only problem is that it doesn't correspond to the current mess of sensory gismu.
The only gismu that corresponds to this scheme is {te panci}.
Probably {te jvinu} as well (thanks xorxes for pointing out!) and {te skari}.
tirna3=viska3=skari4 is something that we can also place in every sensory gismu.
However, they can be easily expressed using {va'o}.
gua\spi's {vyi=X1 sees object X2 against background X3} looks like lojbanic tirna3.
{sumne} is a superfluous gismu.
{vrusi} overlaps the senses of taste and smell (against the policy of lojban one word=one meaning).
In gua\spi there are a bit better definitions, e.g. {xel=X1 smells like prototype (xi) X2*}.
!la gleki's second (compromise) proposal
In order to reach maximum compatibility with the current gimste I can also suggest mergin x2 and x3 in my previous proposal getting
Alternate proposal
{HEAR} - x1 hears object(e.g. musician/sound)/event x2 (e.g. mi tirna lo nu balzgibende cu cladu)
{SEE} - x1 sees object/event x2 (mi viska lo du'u lo tricu cu crino)
{SMELL} - x1 smells object/event x2 (mi sumne lo nu lo xrula cu cpina)
{TASTE} - x1 tastes object/event x2 (mi me'oi TASTE lo nu lo plise cu titla)
{TOUCH} - x1 touches x2 (mi me'oi TOUCH-FEEL lo nu lo sefta cu rufsu)
I also suggest that x2 in all 5 sensory gismu can be both an object and an event, thus allowing sumti-raising
so that we can say
''mi tirna lo balzgibende
mi tirna lo cladu
mi tirna lo nu balzgibende cu cladu ''
We have no gismu for TASTE ( {vrusi} has no place for experiencer) and TOUCH-FEEL ({pencu} is now what we need. when i touch {ko'a} with a screwdriver i touch-feel the screwdriver but touch {ko'a} ).
We would also need to allow in {sumne2} not only the object being smelled but the type of smell and abstraction for the combination of the object and it's smell.
This is something that definitely needs revision.
We have five senses and we must clearly express what we feel.
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