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[Wikineurotic] Wiki page BPFK Section: gismu Issues changed by najrut

The page BPFK Section: gismu Issues was changed by najrut at 13:09 UTC

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* ((BPFK gismu Proposal: mabla and zabna))
* ((BPFK gismu Proposal: gletu))
- * {xatci} for 'yawn'. - Lindar
- ** Why {xatci} ?
- *** Chinese		Dǎ hāqian	daxakian
- *** Hindi			Jambhā'ī	jambai
- *** English		        yawn		ion
- *** Spanish		bostez-o	bostez
- *** Russian		zev		zev
- *** Arabic		ttha'b   	tytyxaxb
- Then scoreGismu suggests "ximna/kibni/kimna/xibni/dibni". Isn't fu'ivla much better for 'yawn' ?
! Unapproved
the following minor mistakes were found on the lojban dict server jbo->en (mostly concerning the see also-section): --sarefo
* sfubu: 2x farlu

The new page content follows below.

! jbovlaste gismu Keywords

Occasionally, it becomes obvious in jbovlaste that a particular keyword is polysemous, or that a particular place deserves a keyword, or that more than one gloss words for a gismu make sense, and so on.  These are all gismu changes that do no change the meaning at all, only the English language words associated with the gismu.

Since jbovlaste is intended to be the source for an eventual published dictionary, this sort of change is a bit touchy.

((Robin Lee Powell|I)) hereby request that the BPFK give to LLG board members, and anyone they might appoint as jbovlaste admins, the power to make such changes without explicit BPFK approval, with the proviso that if anyone doesn't like such a change a vote can be called, and the BPFK's will is the deciding factor in these changes.

This request was approved as of 17 May 2004.  It was informally agreed that jbovlaste should be modified to allow listing of changes made under this new rule, if possible, and that such changes should be listed somewhere as they are made.  The ((Approved gismu Alterations)) page was created for this purpose.

! Set Places

I (Robin Powell) am of the opinion that the "set" places in various gismu are un-necessary, and that the set-only restriction should be abolished for all of those places (with the obvious exception of gismu that are specifically about sets).  Any specification of a group should be acceptable in these places, as that's all that's wanted.  See "kampu", for example (especially since sets don't even have properties!).

! Radical gismu Change Proposals
* ((BPFK gismu Proposal: kanpe))
* ((BPFK gismu Section: Problems With ka))
* ((BPFK gismu Section: Parenthetical Remarks in Brivla Definitions))
* ((BPFK gismu Section: Complete vs. Incomplete Specifications))
* ((BPFK gismu Proposal: mabla and zabna))
* ((BPFK gismu Proposal: gletu))
! Unapproved
the following minor mistakes were found on the lojban dict server jbo->en (mostly concerning the see also-section): --sarefo
* sfubu: 2x farlu
* mutce: 2x traji
* milxe: 2x traji
* cliva: 2x litru
* cumki: see also cumki
* jdima: 2x pleji
* jarki: 2x cinla
* jbari: 2x grute
* jdini: 2x rupnu
* tcadu: 2x jarbu
* jalra: cockroaches are not part of orthoptera; check wikipedia
* curnu: "almost all multicellular invertebrates are indeed wormlike" - almost all invertebrates are arthropods (mostly arachnids + insects), by number of individuals + species. but i guess you *could* say that many/most(?) animal phyla are worm-like.

The following problems were found in ((Word Lists|the official gismu list)):
* ciste: The definition does not contain a verb.  I believe the words "is a" should be inserted before "system".
* jegvo: The keyword, "Jehovist," is actually a synonym for "Yahwist" and does not mean "pertaining to Judaism, Christianity, and/or Islam"; the correct term to use here is "Abrahamic."
* jukni: Crustaceans (which include crabs & lobsters) are *not* arachnids, nor are all non-insect arthropods arachnids.  Additionally, the definition needs to be clearer as to whether it refers to all arachnids or just spiders (or all non-insect arthropods, if you change it appropriately); they are not the same thing.
* jurme: "a bacteria"; "bacteria" is plural, "bacterium" is singular
* kolme: The definition seems to use "bituminous" as a noun even though every dictionary I have checked says that it is an adjective.
* konju: The notes seem to imply that "ellipse" and "ellipsoid" are valid translations despite the fact that these are not compatible with the keyword "cone."
* kurfa: The notes seem to imply that "rectilinear" is a valid translation despite the fact that it does not actually mean "a right-angled shape/form."
* navni: The list of noble/inert gases omits krypton.
* skari: It is unclear what sort of thing can fill the x2 (a property, a spectrum of light, etc)
* tadji: The notes advise to see also "tai", yet "ta'i" is clearly what is meant.
* xanri: The notes should read "...note that __x1__ is imaginary...".  Also, while not exactly an error, the last statement of the notes seems to be a bit of a ''non sequitur'' with the previous statement (Should it say "they thereby do not exist"?).
* jalra: sanjalra ("spanish roach") should be sagjalra (singing roach).
* lanbi: x3 is missing.
* prenu: x2 is missing.
* bancu: The meaning of the x3 is ill-defined. Is it the thing bound?
* pensi2/djuno3: ((pensi2 and djuno3 issues|What's up with that?))

! Other Issues

Issues brought up by members of the community:

!! Uncategorized Other Issues

* simsa shouldn't have "parallel" in the definition.  It should be defined as exactly opposite of panra.
* rlpowell: WRT "panra": I find "differing only in" to be colloquially confusing; "with differentiating property" would make it better for me; I'm not sure I can explain why.
* kribacr and others on IRC are using the term ziltau to refer to what the parsers call a tanru-unit. The idea is that you cannot create tanru out of selbri per se - selbri include things like na broda and ka'e brode. Thus tanru are exclusively created out of ziltau. ziltau lack a 'tense slot' or 'negation slot' - these are things selbri own. The question arises - is this completely accurate? Can we say that na broda isn't really a selbri - but instead that broda is the selbri and na is just a negation 'tag' applied that selbri? Clear definition of what selbri are and if the term ziltau is needed would be useful.
* The x2 of klani is rather non-specific and [https://groups.google.com/group/lojban/tree/browse_frm/month/2008-12/3704fd6219532cda?hl=en&rnum=11&_done=%2Fgroup%2Flojban%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fmonth%2F2008-12%3Fhl%3Den%26scoring%3Dd%26&scoring=d#doc_3704fd6219532cda|some really don't understand what it means]. I ( lindar ) think it's a numeric value based on how other measure-words are formed.
* detri: The x1 is said to be in format [day,{week},{month},year], using {} for who knows what, and canonically forcing a little-endian date (with week number!). Can we change this to big-endian, and resolve this once and for all?
* kutyje'u: It should be mentioned that ''logical'' tautology is meant, the rhetorical device does not make sense here.
* linsi: The word “length” in the description is very confusing, because the measure is not meant, but a whole string.
* cannot find “clika“ when searching for “moss”, “moss” should be the gloss word.
* What is going on with the x3 and x4 of xrani?  How do you fill those?   I certainly don't know. -camgusmis  < djancak> hmmm i guess you could damage the property of social well being as opposed to physical well being < ksion> Or self-esteem. Or privacy. Etc.

!! Semantic Inconsistencies

* Can a person be drani by doing the right thing? Consensus seems to be that no, only an action/event/that sort of thing can be drani, that it's more like {mapti}. But the text is horribly unclear.
* There have been many threads in the past over an issue regarding the definition of {botpi}, which now seems irrelevant as they had been arguing over an old definition that read something to the affect "x1 bottles x2 with x3". While this is completely irrelevant now, the idea behind it is still valid. Is a bottle still a bottle without contents? I'd say yes. Is a bottle still a bottle without a lid? I'd say no (at that point it's a bottle-shaped cup {lo kabri be tai lo botpi}.). However, we should make a language-wide decision. Does a dog stop being a dog after it dies? Does a bottle stop being a bottle when it's not bottling? Does a programmer cease to be a programmer when ey's not programming? -Lindar

!! Abstraction Inconsistencies

* Regarding fenki and other such, why are such words requiring {nu}, but xajmi and others not. [http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/9de182fad80d38aa|Referenced here.]
* [https://groups.google.com/group/lojban/tree/browse_frm/month/2005-01/96315dc4da488dfd?rnum=41&_done=%2Fgroup%2Flojban%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fmonth%2F2005-01%3F#doc_a4761944c07b35c2|We don't have all the measurements.]
* [https://groups.google.com/group/lojban/tree/browse_frm/month/2005-02/14a92824961744de?rnum=11&_done=%2Fgroup%2Flojban%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fmonth%2F2005-02%3F#doc_7d0c998ae7e1a285|Is pacna broken?]
* [https://groups.google.com/group/lojban/tree/browse_frm/month/2005-08/6a2022643f959c80?rnum=11&_done=%2Fgroup%2Flojban%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fmonth%2F2005-08%3F#doc_27e47c902e118083|Place structure of minli].
* [https://groups.google.com/group/lojban/tree/browse_frm/month/2005-12/c099da8a6ffb20c1?rnum=41&_done=%2Fgroup%2Flojban%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fmonth%2F2005-12%3F#doc_4e8d0617170ee533|gunma]
* Oren has expressed concern about the [http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/browse_thread/thread/962ace956da58b6e/cfad6ee769a5e65c|places which require abstraction] and would like the definitions to be more specific. Instead of (quality/event/state) it should read (ka/nu/za'i).

!! Ambiguity

* pritu and zunle have a interesting ambiguity. Is the x3 the orientation of the x1 ("which faces") or a frame of reference form the speaker's point of view? Or is it, as the notes say, "the standard of orientation for x2"? Any of these could be argued, but there are cases where any is true and the others are not.
* febvi: The gloss, "x1 boils/evaporates at temperature x2 and pressure x3." is a bit like saying "x1 is a cat/mammal of breed/species x2"." (tswett, #jbopre, 6 May 2011)  Boiling is the rapid vaporization of an entire liquid, whereas evaporation is a vaporization that occurs only on the surface of the liquid.  Should this gloss be corrected to always refer to vaporization?

!! Similar gismu

* vajni: similar to cirko, objects and events are compressed in the x2 place.  In both cases, this is not ambiguous, as the type of one sumti implies the type of other sumti.  Thoughts?
* cirko: The glosses, "x1 loses person/thing x2 at/near x3" and "x1 loses property/feature x2 in conditions/situation x3" overload the loss of an object and a feature.  Is this a useful compression of gismu space, or does this word have two different meanings?

!! place inconsistencies

* At jbonunsla 2011, we were comparing the sumti for ckana (bed) and stizu (chair).  Compared to ckana, stizu seems underspecified.  It has only an x1 place.  What places do the other furniture gismu have?  Did we manage to encode what amounts to a sexual joke in the definition of ckana?  Or should all furniture gismu be that generous?
* The word namcu [http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/41d334a91bbc0732|doesn't include a place for the base], where logically one would assume the x2 would be "in base x2".
* There are 37 gismu that name specific plants or animals.  33 of these have the definition lo broda cu broda lo jutsi.  The 4 exceptions are tirxu, vidru, lanme, and civla.  lanme has an x3 of flock.  It should either be removed, or flock added to kanba and all of the species of flocking birds.  As an example of a collective noun, if it is not removed, perhaps all of the species should be reviewed for whether they "flock."
* continuing the above, tirxu has an x3 because it is overloading several feline species in a single gismu, and the x3 allows specificity.  Should lujvo be created for each of these species with the coat marking, rather than having an x3 place?  Conversely, should jalra, jukni, kumte, mirli, smani, toldi have an x3?  They're the other gismu with overloaded (i.e, multi species) animals.  (note jalra is mentioned elsewhere in this document)

!! New gismu

* "Clockwise" and "counter-clockwise" probably deserve gismu (complete with axis/frame of reference place).
* What does dukse mean? Can I say "lo cakla cu dukse lo ka titla"?  What about {le girzu cu dukse lo tadni} for "too many students in the group"?  I suspect that x1 should be object(s) (mass?) and x2 a property?  -camgusmis
* Ctino proposes to [http://www.lojban.org/tiki/new%20color%20gismu|add four new color gismu to the list].

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