[lojban-beginners] Re: "If you can read this..."

[Hal Fulton <hal9000@hypermetrics.com>]

la cuncuxnas. wrote:
> In that case, I might go with {do kakne lenu tcidu ti semu'i lenu ko 
> ckire la lojbangirz.}, meaning (roughly) "You are capable of 
> the-event-of reading this motivates the-event-of you (imp.) are grateful 
> to the Lojban Group."  But that comes off sounding a little strange.  
> Using logical connectives, I'd say {ganai do kakne lenu tcidu ti gi ko 
> ckire la lojbangirz.} or "(if) you can read this (then) you (imp.) are 
> grateful to the Lojban Group."  I don't know about the elegant/concise 
> ways, but those are the ways I know.  You might also just say {ko ckire 
> la lojbangirz. lenu do kakne lenu tcidu ti}, since the x3 place of 
> 'ckire' is the reason for being grateful.   If you want something close 
> to your original word order, then {lenu do kakne lenu tcidu ti cu te 
> ckire la lojbangirz. ko} works just fine, as does {fi lenu do kakne lenu 
> tcidu ti cu ckire fa ko la lojbangirz.}  Both of those are just 
> variations on the basic sentence with 'ckire', but using various means 
> of swapping the sumti places.  If anything is unclear, it's probably my 
> fault; I'm up well past my usual sleep-time.


Concerning {do kakne lenu tcidu ti semu'i lenu ko ckire la lojbangirz.}

I've been thinking about this a few days and I'm confused on several levels. :)

1. First of all, surely something like {semu'i} can join bridi? Just as, for
example, we can say {la djan. nanmu .ija la djeimyz. ninmu} -- {.ija} joins
two bridi, does it not? Why then should I have to use an abstractor like nu?
(The entire ch 14 of the Lojban Ref Grammar does not use {lenu} anywhere.)

2. If I leave out the second {lenu} jbofi'e will still translate it. Is there
a real difference in meaning?

3. It bothers me a little that "I can read" must be rendered using {lenu} --
{mi kakne lenu tcidu}. Is there another way? Does {mi tcidu kakne} make any
sense? I wish there were cmavo for what in English we call modal auxiliaries.

4. It bothers me a tiny bit to talk about imperatives in connection with logic.
After all, "If it is raining, you will carry an umbrella" seems (to me) fairly
mathematical; but "If it is raining, carry an umbrella" seems less so. The
statment "If it is raining, I will command you to carry an umbrella" seems more
mathematical but less in tune with the actual meaning. Does anyone have any
thoughts on this?


Thanks,
Hal


> mu'omi'e cuncuxnas.
>
> On 8/16/05, *Hal Fulton* <hal9000@hypermetrics.com 
> <mailto:hal9000@hypermetrics.com>> wrote:
>
>     What I want to say is: "If you can read this, thank the Lojban Group."
>
>     There must be multiple ways to say it. What are the elegant/concise
>     ways?
>
>     And can you explain your own translations? Bear in mind I'm really new
>     at this.
>
>
>     Thanks,
>     Hal
>
>
>      > mu'omi'e cuncuxnas.
>      >
>      > On 8/10/05, *Hal Fulton* < hal9000@hypermetrics.com
>     <mailto:hal9000@hypermetrics.com>
>      > <mailto:hal9000@hypermetrics.com
>     <mailto:hal9000@hypermetrics.com>>> wrote:
>      >
>      >     Is this correct?
>      >
>      >         do kakne cu tcidu ti seva'o ko ckire la lojbangirz.
>      >
>      >     What are other/better ways to say it?
>      >
>      >
>      >     Thanks,
>      >     Hal
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >