[lojban-beginners] Re: translation question

[Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu>]

On Friday 24 April 2009 17:44:24 Ryan Leach wrote:
> 1. The apple is red

le plise cu xunre

> 2. It is John's apple

There's no one translation that sounds most natural for this. It depends on 
whether the apple is at a small, medium, or large distance from speaker and 
listener (if they are together) or close to speaker, listener, or neither (if 
not), whether the apple has been previously mentioned, and how you want to 
put the sentence together. Among the possibilities are:
ti du le la djan. plise
ko'a me la djan. moi plise
ta ne la djan. plise
me le la djan. plise
Before you give up, though, try this question: what's the most natural English 
translation of "le xunre cu plise"?

> 3. I give John the apple

mi dunda le plise la djan.

> 4. We want to give him the apple

Lojban has three words for "we": "mi'a", "ma'a", and "mi'o"; two of which are 
the inclusive/exclusive distinction (look up "clusivity" on Wikipedia and 
there's a link to the article in Lojban). In addition "mi" can be used 
for "we", as if all of us were speaking as one.
mi'o djica lo nu dunda le plise ko'a
This does not imply that we are the ones who give the apple. If he were over 
there, I'd say "ta" instead of "ko'a", unless I'd already called something 
else "ta" and it were confusing.

> 5. He gives it to John

fo'a dunda ko'a la djan.
"fo'a" and "ko'a" belong to a set of ten pronouns which are arbitrarily 
assigned to things. They don't distinguish gender.

> 6. She gives it to him

fo'o dunda ti ko'e
See above.

> le plise cu xunre .i le la djan plise .i mi dunda le plise la djan .i
> ma'a djica cu dunda le plise le nanmu .i le nanmu dunda zo'e la djan
> .i le ninmu dunda zo'e le nanmu

"le la djan. plise" is a bricau jufra. You'd normally use it to answer a 
question.

"ma'a djica cu dunda" is ungrammatical; did you mean "co"? "le nanmu" isn't a 
pronoun, but as Lojban doesn't have gendered pronouns, you may want to use it 
where in English you'd say "he". "zo'e" doesn't mean "it"; it leaves a place 
unfilled, and is normally said only when the place would otherwise be filled 
by "ke'a" or "ce'u" (the relative pronoun and something similar used in 
abstractions).

> - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Negative Translation
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> le plise cu na xunre .i la djan na ponse le plise .i mi na dunda le
> plise la djan .i ma'a na djica cu dunda le plise ne nanmu .i le nanmu
> na dunda zo'e la djan .i le ninmu na dunda zo'e le nanmu
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Past tense translation
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> le plise pu xunre .i la djan pu ponse le plise .i mi pu dunda le plise
> la djan .i ma'a pu djica cu dunda le plise le nanmu .i le nanmu pu
> dunda zo'e la djan .i le ninmu pu dunda zo'e le nanmu
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> future tense translation
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> le plise ba xunre .i la djan ba ponse le plise .i mi ba dunda le plise
> la djan .i ma'a ba djica cu dunda le plise le nanmu .i le nanmu ba
> dunda zo'e la djan .i le ninmu ba dunda zo'e le nanmu

All the negative, past, and future sentences are OK if their present positives 
are. "la djan. cu ponse le plise" means "John owns the apple", which is 
different from "It is John's apple".

> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> tranlated as a yes no question
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> xu le plise cu xunre .i xu la djan ponse le plise  .i xu mi dunda le
> plise la djan .i xu ma'a djica cu dunda le plise le nanmu .i xu le
> nanmu dunda zo'e la djan .i xu le ninmu dunda zo'e le nanmu

You can also say "le la djan. xu plise", which means "John's apple?" i.e. "I 
know it's an apple, but is it John's?". You can't answer that with "go'i" 
because claxu lo bridi. You can say just "naku" or "ja'aku" but I'm not sure 
whether it's a proper answer to that fragment.

> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Translated as a 'ma' question- incomplete
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - -
>
> ma cu xunre (what is red?)

Or just "ma xunre".

> ma cu ponse le plise (whose apple is it?)
> La djan ponse ma (John owns what?)
> mi dunda ma la djan (I give what to john?)
> mi dunda le plise ma (I give the apple to whom?)
> ma'a djica cu dunda ma le nanmu (we all want to give what to her?)

"le nanmu" is "the man".

> ma'a djica cu dunda le plise ma (we all want to give the apple to whom?)
> ma dunda zo'e la djan (Who gave it to john?)

Pierre