[lojban-beginners] Re: Study plan for a quiz- I'd like a second opinion on this one

["Michael Eaton" <michael.eaton@blackpool.gov.uk>]

According to scientific and logical wisdom, yes; dead things do not tend to stop being dead. But that logic does not make it definitive. If you are using that statement in, for instance, a story in a fantastical setting where resurrection is commonplace, the implications of the lack of clarity become much clearer.

 

"I haven't seen Bob for a few days."

"Oh, yeah, he has been dead."

 

See how easily that could say "he has been asleep" or "he has been eating". Both of those examples imply that Bob is no longer asleep or eating. Just because logic dictates meaning, doesn't mean the syntax is as implicit.

-----Original Message-----
From: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org [mailto:lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org]On Behalf Of Steven Lytle
Sent: 02 November 2009 16:53
To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org
Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Study plan for a quiz- I'd like a second opinion on this one

I disagree. The present perfect in English in general means "was and is still". There is no sense of "is no longer".

OTOH, "I ran" means I was running but am no longer running. "I was running" implies I'm not still running.

"I have run many times" implies that I ran many times in the past and will probably in the future, but am not running at the moment.

"I have eaten" does seem to imply that I'm no longer eating.

Maybe the difference has to do with states vs. actions.

In the case of "has been dead", though, if something has been dead, it still is dead.

stevo

On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 11:36 AM, Michael Eaton <michael.eaton@blackpool.gov.uk> wrote:

Not entirely. "Has been dead" is one of those syntactically bizarre phrases that Lojban is designed to avoid. It's not implicit, but the syntax leans towards "was at one time dead, but is no longer dead". "Was and is still dead" is, rather more simply, "dead".

-----Original Message-----
From: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org [mailto:lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org]On Behalf Of Steven Lytle
Sent: 02 November 2009 16:29
To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org
Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Study plan for a quiz- I'd like a second opinion on this one

"Has been dead" means "was and is still dead".

stevo

2009/11/1 Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 12:53 PM, tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  da ca co'i morsi (One dies.)
>  da ca ba'o morsi (One is dead.)

That would work if "morsi" meant "dies" (a change of state, goes from
being alive to being dead) rather than "is dead" (a state).

"ba'o morsi" means "has been dead" (i.e., it is no longer dead), not
"has died" (it is no longer dying).

Compare with "sipna", which is more likely than "morsi" to be used
with "ba'o". "ba'o sipna" means "has been asleep", not "has fallen
asleep". "Falls asleep" is "sipybi'o" or "co'a sipna", and "dies" is
"mrobi'o" or "co'a morsi". "co'i sipna" and "co'i morsi" are complete
events of sleeping, or of being dead. The difference is that events of
being dead don't usually ever end, so its unlikely that one would
speak of "ba'o morsi", "having been dead", except in some very special
contexts.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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