[lojban-beginners] Re: Site for beginners.

[Colin Wright <colin.wright@denbridgemarine.com>]

> With respect, Colin, you are missing the point. We are no longer talking
> about vlatai, but about how we communicate to non-techie beginners.  They
> will be challenged enough with lojban.  They should not have to resort to
> dictionaries and Google to figure out what is supposedly being communicated
> in English.  The onus to achieve effective communications is ALWAYS on the
> communicator, and not on the intended recipient.

Perhaps I didn't make myself sufficiently clear.  I am agreeing with you, 
pretty much entirely.  I am trying to point out the difference between people 
like my parents and people like those who produce the software.  You are 
absolutely right that the software and terminology creates a barrier.  You 
are absolutely right that the barrier needs to be removed before lojban can 
hit the mainstream.  As I said:

cdw> Without people like you this project will forever remain an
cdw> obscure, cultish, techie-only backwater..  You're absolutely
cdw> right that for lojban eventually to expand and become more
cdw> mainstream, it's people like you we need to cater for.

And even though I said that, you appear to have missed my point.  You are 
asking that we understand how non-techies think, and what non-techies need, 
and in return I'm trying to help you understand how techies think.  
Communication needs to be two way.

> I have heard similar arguments to yours from physicians
> and lawyers (not to mention my IT clients).

I have made no arguments - what position do you think I hold?  I assure you 
that I am in complete agreement that access to lojban needs to be more 
"user-friendly" and accessible to non-technies.

> Yet I have a family doctor who always manages to talk intelligibly
> with his patients, no matter how technical the issue or how low
> their level of education. I also have a lawyer who never seems to
> have a problem of being understood by his clients even in the most
> complicated cases.

And these are people who are paid to work on these things full-time.  Further, 
I have met and dealt with many people who do *not* understand what their 
doctors and lawyers are telling them, even if they think they do.  But let's 
leave that to one side and be less cynical and more optimistic.

I have no doubt that a sufficiently gifted and talented programmer can make 
all of the lojban tools sufficiently robust and accessible for non-techies to 
have no trouble using them.  I'm trying to tell you that the time required is 
almost certainly much, much more than you expect.

In my line of work we take the time taken to produce a workable demonstration 
and then multiply by ten in order to get an estimate for when something will 
be ready for market.  If you want someone not to have to follow instructions, 
not to have to look things up, not to have to ask questions, then the time 
taken will be even longer.

I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm saying it can be done and should be done.

> It can be done and, in Lojbanistan, it should be done now.
> "Eventually" is not good enough. Eventually, lojban may end
> up in the graveyard of so many other constructed langauges. 

I agree.  Now, here's the point.  I was looking at the suggestions being made 
and I thought "Cool, I'd like to use that."  So I started estimates for how 
long it would take me, personally, working full time to produce it.  My 
estimate is about a month for me working full time.  That means it would be 
ready for prime-time usage in about a year.

Not going to happen.

There are people *much* more talented than I.  Assume one of them could knock 
it up in a week.  That means it's ready for prime-time in 3 months, assuming 
they are willing to put in the nitpicking, uninteresting, tedious and 
apparently never-ending work to make it sufficiently bulletproof.

Not going to happen.

Maybe my estimates are way off.  Maybe something can be made to work in two or 
three weekends of hacking.  I'd love to see it.

Any volunteers?


Sorry, but I've just myself really, really depressed.  Maybe someone can 
produce a more optimistic analysis.


mi'e kolin.
-- 
Dr C.D.Wright, Director of Innovation and Engineering
Denbridge Marine Limited, Cammell Lairds Waterfront Park,
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