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Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: questions about 'cu'



Well, I wouldn't say that "ca" (or any of selma'o PU) can replace "cu" unambiguously.  Take the following sentence:

lo ca klama ca pinxe

In this case, the first "ca" attaches to the sumti to make it mean something like "the one currently going", where the second "ca" attaches to the selbri of the entire bridi, for a total meaning of "the one currently going is currently drinking", possibly alluding to someone drinking while driving or biking.

In other words:  I believe Mr. Jones is right ("cu isn't needed in those cases"), but just left what those cases are a little cague.

"cu" always serves to point out the main selbri relationship in the sentence.  Think of it like an indicator.  Lojban is a strange language to all of us, and we can all sometimes use a little help picking out the verb in an English sentence.  That's what "cu" does, basically.  Don't think about it that other cmavo can "replace" it, because you can always have "cu", it's just sometimes superfluous.  You can say "le tavla ku cu barda" without being wrong, but it's just unnecessarily clunky.  

My general tendency when learning was to always assume I had to have a "cu", and then work out ways to avoid it as I learned other terminators or tricks.

mi'e .tavic.

On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 4:15 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
ca and friends (PU) can only appear before a selbri, so cu isn't needed in those cases. So, yes, you can replace it.

However, PU is more useful than as merely a cu replacement.

For example:
{mi klama ca lo bavlamdei lonu penmi lo pu pampe'o}, "I'm going to see my former girlfriend tomorrow."


On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 6:54 PM, RexScientiarum <amt2839@gmail.com> wrote:
I am not sure I am even to a point where I want to worry about ku and
terminators just yet.

Anyway, is it correct to replace {cu} with {ca} to show that something
is happening 'right now'?  I was searching through some sentences
using lojbo jufsisku (great resource) and came across a sentence using
it so I put it in jbofi'e and looked it up in jbovlaste (more great
resources) that is how I am guessing {ca} is used from what I learned
there.  I can't find anything in Lojban For Beginners or Lojban
Reference Grammar on using {ca} although I may have missed it.

Anyway, this is the sentence I found on lojbo jufsisku: "do ca catlu
lo va tricu" which is says is supposed to translate as: "You're
looking at that tree."

sia ki'e

-RexScientiarum

On Feb 20, 9:52 am, Adam Lopresto <adamlopre...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just to further what others have said, and try to make it more concrete,
> you can achieve anything without {cu}, but sometimes at the expense of
> adding terminators. Your example is splendid. If we wanted to omit {cu}, we
> could instead use
>
> .iure'e le cevni ku kurji ko
>
> (using the actual terminator for LE in place of the catch-all {cu}), or we
> could rearrange things so we wouldn't need any separator at all.
>
> .iure'e le cevni ko kurji
>
> All of them are valid, all mean exactly the same thing, and your style is
> entirely your choice. The last form is the shortest, and matches my
> personal style. The {ku} version may be better as you're getting the hang
> of terminators. The {cu} version has the marginal benefit of explicitly
> marking the selbri, instead of relying on the listener to know that we've
> gotten to that level (I've heard people praise that, again in more
> complicated examples where it makes a difference). TMTOWTDI
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 12:27 PM, Lee Carlson <lorddr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > My thanks. I created a farewell, based on my spiritual path's "blessed
> > be," which I render as *iure'e le cevni cu kurji ko* by which I mean
> > "with spiritual love I direct you to act in such a way that your perception
> > of god (the divine) cares about/for you." Have I accomplished my goal?
>
> > mi'o mi'e brais
>
> > On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 10:03 AM, Michael Turniansky <
> > mturnian...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>   Yes, don't let lindar and his dialect contingent mislead you.  It DOES
> >> serve a purpose, but it can be worked around, as well.  Its purpose is to
> >> mark which word/phrase in a bridi that is the main relationship.  Can it be
> >> worked around?  Yes, but as Pierre mentioned, it means properly closing off
> >> all open structures before then.
>
> >>    So, what would you use in its place?  That depnds entirely on what
> >> needs terminating.  If nothing needs closing, the you don't need it.
>
> >>                 --gejyspa
>
> >> On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 7:21 AM, Lee Carlson <lorddr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> And here I was told that without cu one of my favorite statements made
> >>> no sense at all. So what is it: does cu serve a purpose, or not? If not,
> >>> then what would I use in it's place?
>
> >>> mi'o brais
>
> >>> On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 3:38 AM, Lindar <lindartheb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> The short answer:
> >>>> It's never necessary. NEVER.
> >>>> It's a handy shortcut sometimes.
> >>>> Learn to do without it at first or your grammar will suck.
>
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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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