Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: What can you do with Lojban that you can't do with English?

On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 1:18 AM, ianek <janek37@gmail.com> wrote:

On 17 Maj, 08:48, Jonathan Jones <eyeo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 12:46 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 11:27 PM, ianek <jane...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> On 17 Maj, 05:55, Pierre Abbat <p...@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
> >> > On Wednesday 16 May 2012 20:19:41 Lindar wrote:
>
> >> > > We have red chickens and cows.
> >> > > Are the cows red?
>
> >> > Also, "we" = "I and who else?"
>
> >> > mi'a ponse lo xunre jipci .e lo bakni — doesn't say what color the cows
> >> are.
> >> > mi'a ponse lo xunre jipci je bakni — false, as no chicken is a cow.
>
> >> Aionys says that it doesn't make that assertion. According to him, "we
> >> are a husband and a wife" is {mi'a me lo nakspe je fetspe}. So even
> >> such simple things like logical connectives are controversial in
> >> Lojban... uinai
>
> > It's aionys, not Aionys, and I don't say that.

Sorry, I've only used the capital A because it was the beginning of
the sentence.

> > {lo} is not explicit about
> > whether we are speaking of individuals or masses/sets, so it is possible to
> > have either interpretation. There is nothing controversial about this.
>
> > To quote the tiki page on xorlo:
>
> > lo's inner quantifier indicates the number of things we're talking about,
> > but in a slightly different fashion. "mu lo bakni cu bevri lo pipno" means
> > "Five cows each carried a piano individually". "lo mu bakni cu bevri lo
> > pipno" is ambiguous as to whether they did it individually or as a group.
> > To be clear about group-ness, use loi and friends.
>
> Also, I feel I should point out that in {mi'a me lo nakspe je fetspe}, it
> is obvious that "lo nakspe je fetspe" is implicitly referring to a group
> because of "mi'a", and for no other reason.

{lo nakspe je fetspe} refers to "one or more things that are nakspe je
fetspe". If being nakspe je fetspe doesn't imply being simultanously
both a husband and a wife, then {lo jipci je bakni} doesn't imply that
some chicken is a cow. I don't see how it's not analogical. The
sentence about cows and chickens also refers to a group.

A group can be contradictory things. Individuals can not. It is possible for a group to be cows and chickens, it is not possible for individuals to be cows and chickens. It is possible for a group to be husbands and wives, it is not possible for individuals to be so. The reason he says {mi'a ponse lo xunre jipci je bakni} is false is because he is referring to them as individuals. The reason {mi'a me lo nakspe je fetspe} is true is because I am (implicitly) referring to them as a group. "lo" is not specific as to whether a multitude of something is being addressed as a group or individually, although typically the individual interpretation is implied, as I said. The reasons why it is obvious that "lo nakspe je fetspe" should be interpreted as a group is because {mi'a} refers to groups- specifically, the group consisting of "The speaker and others unspecified but not the listener", and because an individual interpretation doesn't make sense, because it is impossible for an individual can't be a wife and a husband.

Also, I still don't see any difference in meaning between {broda} and
{me lo broda}.

mu'o mi'e ianek

> >> > mi'a ponse lo xunre jipci .e lo xunre bakni — the cows are red.
> >> > mi'a ponse lo xunre jipci ja bakni — they're all red, but whether
> >> they're all
> >> > chickens or all cows or a mix isn't stated.
>
> >> What about {mi'a ponse lo xunre jipci joi bakni}?
>
> >> mu'o mi'e ianek
>
> >> > Pierre
> >> > --
> >> > loi mintu se ckaji danlu cu jmaji
>
> >> --
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>
> > --
> > mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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