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Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: ko klama ma

Am 21.07.2012 23:01, schrieb ianek:
 
On 21 Lip, 22:35, selpa'i <m...@plasmatix.com> wrote:

Am 21.07.2012 22:02, schrieb tanbla:


coi
I was wondering how multiple questions/commands work in a sentence.
For example, what does {ko klama ma} mean? {xu ko klama}? {xu ko klama
ma}?


I interpret a question containing both {xu} and {ma} as being two
questions. (1a) is roughly equal to (1b):

(1a) .i xu do viska ma

(1b) .i xu do viska da .i je do viska ma
"Do you see something, and what is it?".

{ko klama ma} is a bit unusual, but you could understand it as "Where do
I want you to go?". Again, (2a) and (2b) are roughly equivalent:


I see it otherwise. A sentence with {ko} is always a command, not a
question about a command. So for me this is something like {ko klama i
do klama ma}, ie. 'Go! Where will you go?'.

If we take {ko klama ma} as an example, we can analyze it like this:

Ignoring klama3,4,5 we have:

[[klama]] = λx ∈D. λy ∈D. x klama y

[[ko klama]] = λy ∈D. ko klama y

If both {ko} and any number of {ma} are present, {ko} takes precedence in filling its place:

[[ko klama ma]] = λx ∈D. λy ∈D. x klama y
                = λy ∈D. ko klama y (= mi do minde lo nu do ce'u klama)
                = ko klama ma       (= mi do minde lo nu do ma klama)

That is, we first have the denotation "ko klama y" and then fill the remaining place with a question about what belongs in that place. This means we are asking about the destination of klama *within* the command. The lowest priority argument (ma) is applied last.

Similarly, for (simplified) {xu ko klama}, the xu is lower "priority", but it does not compete for any sumti-places, so we simply get a questioned predication (I'm using "?" to indicate that). Again omitting unnecessary places:

[[klama]] = λx ∈D. x klama

[[ko klama]] = ko klama  (= mi do minde lo nu do klama)

[[(ko klama)? ]] = xu ko klama  (= xu mi do minde lo nu do klama)

This yields the hierarchy of order of application:
ko > ma > xu

This effectively makes UI (most importantly {xu}) the most powerful operators, because they come last and swallow up everything else that happened before them.
Conversely, things like imperatives (ko) or negation (NA) are relatively weak, as they are applied much earlier.

The complete hierarchy in my opinion is:
NA > ko > ma > UI

Pardon me if I forgot something, it's way past bed-time :)

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
 
-- 
.i pau mi me ma .i pa mai ko mi jungau la'e di'u 
.i ba bo mi va'o lo nu nelci lo nu me ma kau cu barkla 
.i va'o lo nu na nelci cu denpa ti lo nu mi drata

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