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Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Why no "about" brivla?



On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 3:39 PM, Sebastian Fröjd <so.cool.ogi@gmail.com> wrote:
I first thought that ckini had something to do with being related to someone like fatherhood, brotherhood, auntness (?) etc.
Guess I was wrong then. So how do you say: "Are you related?" in lojban, as in relatives. Maybe something with lanzu?

Yes.
 
But family for my swedish ears is more like close relatives, your household or they who you share your life with, not your cousins wife or something similar.

Well, that's probably why lanzu has the "by bond" x3 place, so that you could say something like {lo mi lanzu cu lanzu mi .e lo mi bruna .e lo mi mamta fi lo ciblu pe'a}.
 
{srana} seems to have an asymmetric relation of x1 and x2 as default, although not necessary, as expressed in it's note: "x1 is conventionally more specific or constrained in scope than x2 .
I agree that the definitions of {srana} and {ckini} are a bit unclear, so hopefully this discussion will lead to some result, but I'm too tired right now to try to reason about it.

How official are the BPFK sections btw? Here I have read CLL, Lojban for beginners and vlasisku for over a year, and then this week I find out about BPFK, xorlo, PEG, fu'ivla-rafsi etc. I'm kind of stunned.

mu'omi'e jongausib

2012/12/2 ianek <janek37@gmail.com>
"danlu" means "x1 is an animal of species x2". I meant that the set of
cats is a subset of the set of all animals. Is vlasisku not usable by
blind people? I suppose so. vlasisku.lojban.org

mu'o mi'e ianek

On 2 Gru, 18:22, Annie <park.an...@asb.gaggle.net> wrote:
> What is danlu? How can mlatu be a subset of anything? I honestly think the whole thing is crazy.
>
> Sent from my iPod
>
> On Dec 2, 2012, at 10:14 AM, ianek <jane...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
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> > On 2 Gru, 14:02, Jonathan Jones <eyeo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 2:48 AM, la gleki <gleki.is.my.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:32:48 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
>
> >>>> On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 1:03 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>> On Sunday, December 2, 2012 11:15:01 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
>
> >>>>>> On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 12:00 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>>>>>> On Sunday, December 2, 2012 10:50:42 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 11:09 PM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>> On Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:30:39 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 6:17 AM, tijlan <jbot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>>> On 1 December 2012 12:09, ianek <jan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> This is just what {se srana} or {selra'a} is.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> An about, a thematic focus, is more specific than that. cfika2, for
> >>>>>>>>>>> instance, may be as much relevant to cfika1 as cfika3 may be -- a
> >>>>>>>>>>> work
> >>>>>>>>>>> of fiction cu srana both its plot and its author (and possibly many
> >>>>>>>>>>> other things). Consider:
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> la .alis. cfika sera'a lo nixli
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> This doesn't necessarily say that the plot revolves around a girl
> >>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>> it could as well be saying the work is dedicated to a girl.
>
> >>>>>>>>>> I'm sorry, I don't see how anything based on {srana} could possibly
> >>>>>>>>>> mean "dedicated to". You'll have to explain.
>
> >>>>>>>>> Well, may be it's not that something is wrong with {sera'a/pe/srana}
> >>>>>>>>> but rather wrong usage and/or glossing.
>
> >>>>>>>>> *srana x1 pertains to/is germane/relevant to/concerns/is
> >>>>>>>>> related/associated with/is about x2.*
> >>>>>>>>> *ckini  x1 is related to/associated with/akin to x2 by relationship
> >>>>>>>>> x3.*
>
> >>>>>>>>> If we arbitrarily chose parts of those definitions we'd get
> >>>>>>>>> *  srana x1 is relevant to x2
> >>>>>>>>>   ckini  x1 is relevant to x2
> >>>>>>>>> *
> >>>>>>>>> which is nonsense.
>
> >>>>>>>> ckini wouldn't be that. For one thing, you left out the x3, and for
> >>>>>>>> another, it isn't "relevant", it's "related". The Cold War isn't relevant
> >>>>>>>> to WWII, but it is related (by being a direct result of it).
>
> >>>>>>> Sorry, it should be
> >>>>>>> *  srana x1 is releted to x2*
> >>>>>>> *  ckini  x1 is related to x2 by relationship x3*
>
> >>>>>> Well, by that definition, srana is {ckini fi zi'o}, which makes them
> >>>>>> synonyms in the same way that litru is to klama (litru = {klama zi'o zi'o}).
>
> >>>>> Haven't you read my previous post? I mean that choosing words from full
> >>>>> definitions ARBITRARILY can lead to this result which is nonsense.
> >>>>> ju'o it's all bad glossing.
> >>>>> I suggest that srana refers to topic and ckini means "to be associated
> >>>>> with".
> >>>>> to dedicate is {finfriti}, {tecu'u} etc.
>
> >>>> No, ko'a srana ko'e means that ko'a is relevant to ko'e, i.e. ko'a has
> >>>> something to do with ko'e.
>
> >>>> While it is true that the topic of something is pertinent, something
> >>>> which is pertinent is not necessarily the topic.
>
> >>> Then what is your opinion about my first post? Is it true that "topic"
> >>> brivla has right to exist on it's own?
>
> >> My opinion is that sera'a serves the purpose. As I said, "that which is
> >> pertinent to A" is a superset of "the topic of A".
>
> > So what? By analogy: why would we have {mlatu} when it's clearly a
> > subset of {danlu}, so danlu serves the purpose of "x1 is a cat"?
>
> > mu'o mi'e ianek
>
> >>> Roosevelt is pertinent to the Great Depression, but he is most certainly
> >>>> /not/ the topic of it.
>
> >>>>>  (Btw, in my view, zi'o doesn't say that there is no such thing as
> >>>>>> whatever place it's in, but just that it's not important. For example,
> >>>>>> {ko'a klama zi'o zi'o ...} doesn't mean there /isn't/ an origin or
> >>>>>> destination, it just means that they don't matter. Dissenters should use
> >>>>>> zo'e instead.)
>
> >>>>> I think the CLL says almost the same.
>
> >>>>>>>>> If {srana} really gives us thematic role then all the other "is
> >>>>>>>>> relevant to" meanings can be assigned to {ckini/seki'i}.
>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> >>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> >>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
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> >>>> --
> >>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> >>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> >>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
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> >> --
> >> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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