Re: [lojban-beginners] Lojban sounds and Wikipedia article about those sounds

[Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org>]

On Saturday, June 01, 2013 23:08:53 Daeldir wrote:
> My question was about the “recommended” pronunciation (like, the french “r”
> sound is very strange for many people, but stay correct in lojban, I just
> wanted people that learn lojban to speak with a lojban accent, and not a
> french accent, if they wish to do so).

I don't think a distinct Lojban accent has evolved yet. We could go by K&F's 
pronunciation, once they're old enough, but I hesitate to make their 
pronunciation of "x" normative because their father is missing the uvula. 
Maybe we should wait until a child learns Lojban from two adults with different 
accents.

> On an other note, how do you pronunce words like “darxi” or “xruti”? When I
> try with a tap, “xruti” become “xcuti” and “darxi” becomes “dalxi”. My
> trill being a uvular one, I manage to pronunce those two words by “waving”
> my tongue but… Well, I have a hard time learning the “r” (at least, they
> explained to me an approximated relation beetween the french “r” and the
> lojban “x” on the french mailing list).

I didn't explain that, thinking it was a bit too complicated, but here it is: 
"x" is a voiceless velar or uvular fricative (I'm not sure if I am pronouncing 
a uvular fricative or trill). "r" is a voiced trill when next to "x"; "x" is 
uvular when next to "r". "rx" is an alveolar trill followed by a uvular trill; 
"xr" is a simultaneous uvulo-alveolar trill which is first voiceless, then 
voiced. If "r" occurs between two "x", as in "rirxrxrone" and "rirxrxrazdani", 
instead of using the English "r" as I usually do between consonants, I 
pronounce a double trill and turn the voice on and off. If the sequence ends 
with "x", as in the hypothetical word "maxrxa", I end with a uvular, dropping 
the alveolar trill.

> I find lojban “poor” in sounds, as there is not many of them. But lojban may
> become rich in “cultural accents”, since what is a significant difference
> in other languages is only a pronunciation singularity in lojban (I don't
> have an exemple in english, but in french, the only way to distinguish “les
> frais” (the costs) and “lait frais” (fresh milk) is in the accent – and
> people that do not “hear” those accents tend to do terrible mistakes (some
> french don't hear, or at least speak those accents). Although in “un brin
> bien brun”, some put a difference in each “un”, but every french
> understantd it and some don't hear *at all* the difference. That would be
> like in lojban, only “cosmetic” accent. Another example is with the spanish
> “r”: “pera” and “perra” are very different in spanish, but would be the
> same in lojban).

I pronounce "un" and "in" differently, but once my father said "défunte" in a 
way that I heard "défeinte".

Here are some more minimal pairs/triplets/etc. which may be hard for speakers 
of other languages to hear:
en: sin/sing/thin/thing, ship/sheep, look/Luke
fr: cire/sur/sœur/sueur/sieur, pécher/pêcher/péchait/pêchait
es: uñón/union, ahorra/ahora

Pierre
-- 
li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa

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