[lojban-beginners] Re: Lojban attempt: please correct

Thank you all :)

"fendi" and "simbi'o" look to be what I intended. When I searched for "separate", jbovlaste didn't show "fendi" so perhaps that could be updated.

I'm not sure why I didn't find "simbi'o" in my last search: perhaps I searched for "unites" instead of "unite".

My work-in-progress is:

za'a lo bangu cu fendi ma'a.i

ja'o lo ka remna cu simbi'o ma'a.i

.ei ma'a cilre fi ma'a

To clarify, my intended meaning is:

(I observe that) language (is something that) divides/separates us-(inclusive of you and me, but also could be everyone).

(From my deduction) humanity-(the condition of being human) unites us-(inclusive of you and me, but also could be everyone).

Each of us-(inclusive of you and me, but also could be everyone) must learn (about) one another.

I hope I am getting closer?

I haven't yet learnt "ka" and don't fully know the difference between "lo nu remna" vs "lo ka remnu" - is there a page I should read?

Where is the best place to learn about "soi", "vo'a" and "ka"? The jbovlaste definitions were unhelpful (they each seem more like a reminder than a full instruction on how to use the word) and the CLL is opaque.

The jbovlaste definition was also very sparse for "cilre" so the difference between x2 and x3 is still not very clear, hence my erroneous usage.

From: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com <lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com> on behalf of selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de>

Sent: Wednesday, 26 August 2015 5:59 AM
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Lojban attempt: please correct

la'o me. Timothy Lawrence .me cusku di'e:
> I posted my Lojban attempt on #ckule yesterday:
>
>       .za'a lo bangu cu tolxregau ma'a.i
>       .ja'o lo nu remna cu gumgau ma'a.i
>       .ei ma'a cilre ma'a

I think you are confused about the function of the "." dot
character/letter. Its function is *not* to start a sentence.

The dot {.} is a consonant (pronounced as a glottal stop (or pause)). It
precedes words that (would otherwise) begin with a vowel, e.g. {.au},
{.arbaleta}, and also the word {.i}.

The word {.i} is the sentence separator, not the dot.

> Could someone correct it? I was trying to say the following:
>
>       (I observe that) language separates you and me.
>       (I deduce that) humanity unites you and me.
>       We must learn one another.

There are a lot of possible ways to translate this depending on the
exact meaning of the words. E.g. is "language" an agentive cause or
separation or not? What sense of humanity is intended? Who is "we"? Etc etc.

One option:

za'a lo bangu cu te sepli do mi
.i ja'o lo ka xendo cu te jorne do mi
.i mi'o nitcu lo ka simxu lo ka tadni

(you could also use {simxu lo ka cilre} if you really wanted; the whole
text is highly metaphorical anyway, but {mi cilre do} does sound a bit
odd to most Lojbanists)

If you can answer the above questions then I can do another translation.
My translation was just a wild guess.

> Does "ja'o" definitely translate to "therefore"? Because I wasn't
> intending on using it to link the two sentences.

It marks your sentence as a conclusion, but it doesn't have to be the
conclusion of the previous sentence.

mi'e la selpa'i mu'o

From: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com <lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 26 August 2015 5:45 AM
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Lojban attempt: please correct

On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 9:50 PM, Timothy Lawrence <timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au> wrote:

I posted my Lojban attempt on #ckule yesterday:

.za'a lo bangu cu tolxregau ma'a.i
.ja'o lo nu remna cu gumgau ma'a.i
.ei ma'a cilre ma'a

Could someone correct it? I was trying to say the following:

(I observe that) language separates you and me.
(I deduce that) humanity unites you and me.
We must learn one another.

I am doubtful that my Lojban is correct (especially the last sentence). I used some vocabulary I found on jbovlaste but there's probably better words?

You probably don't really want "tolxregau" here, although from a poetic sense, it can work. It means to separate something into its component parts. But I expect you are looking for something more along the lines of "za'a lo bangu cu te sepli mi do" (I observe that language is a barrier between me and you) (if you want a more universal me and you, use "za'a lo bangu cu te sepli lo prenu lo [bi'u] prenu"

For your second sentence, I expect you really want "ka" not "nu", because you are talking about our quality of being human (our humanity, not our event of being human). Also, if you really want "me" and "you", not "me" and "you" and "others", use mi'o, not ma'a. That being said, mi'o and ma'a are already masses, so don't really belong as the second argument of gumgau. Try this: "ja'o lo ka remna cu gumgau mi jo'u do mio"

As for your last sentence, "ma'a (or mi'o)" are not facts. You can't cilre them. But you can learn about them, so they go in the third argument of cilre. Now, since you want mutually, you will find "simxu" is your friend: "ei mi'o cu simxu lo nu cilre zo'e"

One other small point. ".i" is traditionally conceptualized as the beginning of second and subsequent sentences, not the end, so the more typically orthography would be (with your original sentences):

za'a lo bangu cu tolxregau ma'a
.i.ja'o lo nu remna cu gumgau ma'a

.i .ei ma'a cilre ma'a:

Note also that your pause (".") before za'a and ja'o, while not grammatically incorrect, is unnecessary and odd-looking.

deltab thought my attempt reads as "You know, languages unmix us. Therefore, being human aggregates us. We have to learn us."

Does "ja'o" definitely translate to "therefore"? Because I wasn't intending on using it to link the two sentences.

Absolutely not. If you wanted to link them like that, you would have used a construction like ".i ja'e bo" deltab seems confused.

From: la .xabltos. <hobbletoe@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 26 August 2015 5:03 AM
To: Lojban Beginners
Cc: Timothy Lawrence
Subject: Re: Lojban attempt: please correct

I am still learning myself, but I think it would be

za'a le bangu cu fendi do .e mi

gi'e lo nu remna cu simbi'o do .e mi

.ei ma'a cilre soi vo'a

I'm not entirely sure about the last line, but I think it is close.